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 Post subject: Re: More from the religion of Peace
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:20 am 
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jwilkerson wrote:
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... Islam must be reformed or expunged and eventually forced to reform ...


I wonder about that "forced to reform" part.

Did the Cathaholics reform due to EXTERNAL pressure (forcing) or internal pressure?

I think internal, and I suspect so will the moozlims ... it is actually better to pull out and let them focus on fighting each other, rather than to give them a common enemy to rally against and forget their differences. Arguably, our "interference" strategy actually delays their reformation. Now after 9/11 I would've rubbled TTHM and The head lodges of the taliban and where ever I though uncle bin was ... and continued to hunt him down if he was still alive ... but other than that ... and some word slinging ... I would've stayed out of land wars on their ground ... we've hurt our position far more than theirs by our actions over the past 17 years.


Agree with one caveat:even if they are mostly occupied "fighting each other," there is the possibility for some heinous attack against true innocents.

I'm not sure I agree that "we've hurt our position far more than theirs," though I would agree that, the potentials for real gains which 911 presented were largely squandered.

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 Post subject: Re: More from the religion of Peace
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:00 am 
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You don't really know. What if AQ were allowed to have a safe haven in Afghanistan and passage through Pakistan? Did we really have a choice other than going after OBL?

We ignored his declaration of war BEFORE 9-11 and look what happened. We could hardly allow the shithead to keep making videos. Look how many millions of muslim larvae were named "osama" in 2001. You can't have Pal grandmas ululating every time Americans are killed. They need to see a 100:1 kill ratio in our favor with lots of good video feed of the action. If they think they are winning it creates millions of more jihadists. The Left would have you believe western use of force creates jihadists. Sure, it makes them mad, but if they think they will last 5 minutes on the battelfield, even a muzzie larva will think twice.

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 Post subject: Re: More from the religion of Peace
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:27 am 
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jwilkerson wrote:
Quote:
... Islam must be reformed or expunged and eventually forced to reform ...


I wonder about that "forced to reform" part.

Did the Cathaholics reform due to EXTERNAL pressure (forcing) or internal pressure?

I think internal, and I suspect so will the moozlims ... it is actually better to pull out and let them focus on fighting each other, rather than to give them a common enemy to rally against and forget their differences. Arguably, our "interference" strategy actually delays their reformation. Now after 9/11 I would've rubbled TTHM and The head lodges of the taliban and where ever I though uncle bin was ... and continued to hunt him down if he was still alive ... but other than that ... and some word slinging ... I would've stayed out of land wars on their ground ... we've hurt our position far more than theirs by our actions over the past 17 years.


I’m not sure t sure specifically which reforms to,the Roman Catholic Church you are referrring to.
I am not an expert on RC Church history but would presume there have been reforms on multiple occasions.

That said, I’m not sure that you can say that all reforms to the Church were due to internal reasons. I would guess that reforms were the result of both internal and external reasons.

For example, there were (presumably) significant reforms as a result of the Protestant Reformation. Martin Luther was a significant factor in the Reformation. He was a RC priest, so one could argue that this was an ‘internal’ reform. But he alone did not cause the Reformation. There were some pretty powerful German secular leaders (princes, nobles, etc) who supported Luther (because it was politically expedient for them to do so), so they would be classified as “external” pressure.

———-

As for any potential Muslim reformation, I also would advocate that (theoretically) such a movement/occurrence would be best to be “internal”, that is within the Muslim religious community, and not forced by others.

Islam though is a very political religion. There are numerous countries where Islam is either the official state religion, unofficially the state religion and with significant political influence, or in several cases, the countries are essentially theocracies (Iran for example). And you have Muslim countries who fall under different sects of Islam (Shi’a and Sunni) so such a reformation will involve national governments. In some cases, these Shi’a and Sunni countries are next door to one another, or in some cases, population ions within a particularly country are made up of both Shi’a and Sunni.

——-

My vote would be for the US to step away from this, but, it must be with a clear message that “you guys sort this out for yourself but if your reformation impacts us (in attacks on the US or US citizens) then be prepared for a nasty response”.

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 Post subject: Re: More from the religion of Peace
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:36 am 
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Quote:
... I am not an expert on RC Church history ...


There was this relatively massive batch of reforms called the "REFORMATION" ... which ran from the early 1500s to the mid 1600s ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation

I think that group of reforms were primarily internally (within the world of West Christianity) driven.

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 Post subject: Re: More from the religion of Peace
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:00 pm 
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jwilkerson wrote:
Quote:
... I am not an expert on RC Church history ...


There was this relatively massive batch of reforms called the "REFORMATION" ... which ran from the early 1500s to the mid 1600s ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation

I think that group of reforms were primarily internally (within the world of West Christianity) driven.


Yes, I am well aware of Luther's Protestant Reformation which started with him nailing his 95 Theses to the church door in Wittenberg. (I am Lutheran).

Now that you define 'internal' (within the world of West Christianity) I would agree that it was, by that definition, internal.

When I made my earlier post, that definition was not given, and I going by the premise whether that the reform was internal to the Roman Catholic Churches hierarchical structure (priest-->bishop-->cardinal--->pope) itself.

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 Post subject: Re: More from the religion of Peace
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:00 pm 
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jwilkerson wrote:
Quote:
... I am not an expert on RC Church history ...


There was this relatively massive batch of reforms called the "REFORMATION" ... which ran from the early 1500s to the mid 1600s ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation

I think that group of reforms were primarily internally (within the world of West Christianity) driven.


Yes, I am well aware of Luther's Protestant Reformation which started with him nailing his 95 Theses to the church door in Wittenberg. (I am Lutheran).

Now that you define 'internal' (within the world of West Christianity) I would agree that it was, by that definition, internal.

When I made my earlier post, that definition was not given, and I going by the premise whether that the reform was internal to the Roman Catholic Churches hierarchical structure (priest-->bishop-->cardinal--->pope) itself.

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 Post subject: Re: More from the religion of Peace
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:28 am 
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Quote:
... As for any potential Muslim reformation, I also would advocate that (theoretically) such a movement/occurrence would be best to be “internal”, that is within the Muslim religious community, and not forced by others ...


So, I was actually agreeing with you - I case you didn't notice !!! :D

==
And I would add, that the results of any future moozlim "Reformation" would be similar to the result of the christian one ... with more "schisms" ... and hopefully, at least one strain of such being more secular, tolerant, laid back, than some of the current ones ... the "our way or the highway" idea causes a lot of conflict ... globally ...

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 Post subject: Re: More from the religion of Peace
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:17 am 
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jwilkerson wrote:
Quote:
... As for any potential Muslim reformation, I also would advocate that (theoretically) such a movement/occurrence would be best to be “internal”, that is within the Muslim religious community, and not forced by others ...


So, I was actually agreeing with you - I case you didn't notice !!! :D

==
And I would add, that the results of any future moozlim "Reformation" would be similar to the result of the christian one ... with more "schisms" ... and hopefully, at least one strain of such being more secular, tolerant, laid back, than some of the current ones ... the "our way or the highway" idea causes a lot of conflict ... globally ...


Right -> few decades if not centuries of fighting . . . in a nuclear, jet, global information commons space age . . . What could go wrong?

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 Post subject: Re: More from the religion of Peace
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:05 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:
[

Right -> few decades if not centuries of fighting . . . in a nuclear, jet, global information commons space age . . . What could go wrong?


Ah, yes, that would be the "fission" of islam.

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 Post subject: Re: More from the religion of Peace
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:49 pm 
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Early cracks in the ediface ?? ... the first stirrings of the "REFORMATION" ??

Quote:
... Operating out of a small room in an unknown country, a new internet radio station broadcasts a programme aimed at campaigning for greater women's rights in Saudi Arabia.

With melancholy music playing in the background, the presenter of Nsawya FM (Feminism FM) addresses the issue of domestic violence in the Gulf kingdom.

The presenter's voice shakes with emotion as she discusses the fate of Sara, a woman she says was killed by a male relative.

She was a 33-year-old university graduate with a job who lived with her parents - and who wanted to marry a man with a different nationality, that of Yemen.

"Sara's dream was ended with five bullets shot by her 22-year-old brother, even though she had been officially engaged with the consent of her parents," Ashtar, a 27 year old who uses a pseudonym inspired by the Mesopotamian goddess of love and war, later told BBC Arabic by phone.

The case was reported by the media and discussed by people who knew her, Ashtar said.

The presenter also told the story of Hanan Shahri, who is reported to have killed herself in 2013 after her brother and uncle allegedly beat her and refused to allow her to marry her fiancé.

Such cases, Ashtar said, were "only the tip of the iceberg".

'Silent majority'
Three weeks ago, Nsawya FM set up a Twitter account and announced it would broadcast a weekly programme that would be the "voice of the silent majority".

It also called for volunteers who wanted to get involved in production or contribute material.

In the past two weeks, the station has broadcast two one-hour programmes using only a microphone, a laptop with editing software and the live audio streaming website Mixlr.

The poor quality of the sound and the whole production, in general, reflects the non-professional nature of this project.

Ashtar said they did not expect a massive audience initially, and were instead aiming for "gradual growth" as the programme spread awareness on women's rights ...


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-45181505

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