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 Post subject: Re: China spying on Australia
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:36 pm 
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Australia....NATO obligation in Afghanistan? No

Germany, France, Norway, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Britain....Yes

The sad truth is the only NATO "ally" that pulled their weight was the UK.

In 2019, an Australian Bn is worth a German division. :lol:

Australia in korea, 2 Bn continuously present. One carrier group.

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 Post subject: Re: China spying on Australia
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:01 pm 
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jack t ripper wrote:
Australia....NATO obligation in Afghanistan? No

Germany, France, Norway, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Britain....Yes

The sad truth is the only NATO "ally" that pulled their weight was the UK.

In 2019, an Australian Bn is worth a German division. :lol:

Australia in korea, 2 Bn continuously present. One carrier group.


My bold above.

Particularly if you insist that a division have equipment which actually works!

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 Post subject: Re: China spying on Australia
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:24 pm 
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Still, 2 Bn's does not make a division. The MF Turks had a brigade in Korea... :P

jack t ripper wrote:
The sad truth is the only NATO "ally" that pulled their weight was the UK.


Australian troops beat back some smaller overextended Jap forces during the early WW2 Pacific, but then the US did all the heavy lifting. As thanks there's the Battle of Brisbane and token forces in A-stan on Euro levels, about the size of a shit nation like Denmark. Everyone knows it. Some ally, eh? :P

The US should walk, no run, away from Oz. :D


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 Post subject: Re: China spying on Australia
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:34 pm 
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At the start of the war in the pacific, Australia had most of it's regular army in North Africa and a substantial force in Malaya. That's hardly their fault.

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 Post subject: Re: China spying on Australia
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:42 pm 
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Continental europeans have no legitimacy telling Americans whom shoulbe allies. Continental europeans have no knowledge of what it means to be an ally. Id take company of Australians over a legion of swedes or danes any day.

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 Post subject: Re: China spying on Australia
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:19 pm 
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jack t ripper wrote:
At the start of the war in the pacific, Australia had most of it's regular army in North Africa and a substantial force in Malaya. That's hardly their fault.


Australia did put in restrictions on use of conscripted troops outside of Australia, something the US did not. :)


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 Post subject: Re: China spying on Australia
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:38 pm 
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I'm applying the supposed mdiehl style sober, hyper realist approach on allies to Australia. You obviously don't like it one bit - probably because you feel a kinship with Australia and Australians.

None of you can offer any actual benefit to the US of the sort that is usually demanded from European allies. A squad of Australians, a company, two Bns...bawahaha..., there should be divisions by your standards for it to be worthwhile and that hasn't been the case.

Could be the only reason needed is actually a feeling of approval of Australians in general, which is fine. But then again the AoW flame warrior muzrub was Australian... :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: China spying on Australia
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:39 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
The solution to all problems must be an American withdrawal from Europe, and probably the Pacific.


Withdrawal is not a solution, it is an act. Where American strategic national interests are not in play, we should withdraw.

As for NATO, there are no American strategic national interests at play. It is a defensive treaty directed towards the Soviet Union, which, BTW, no longer exists.

If cooperation is required for some particular reason such as counter terrorism; the US should negotiate those treaties on a country by country basis. This is at the heart of Trump's foreign policy approach. Realistically, we should engage those countries who are actively fighting terrorism. That would include Russia, BTW, however, if NATO exists, there is absolutely no way we are going to get them to cooperate.

Since NATO no longer serves the strategic national interests of the US, and indeed actually interferes in the pursuit of our strategic national interests, we should, therefore, leave it. Other treaties need to be renegotiated based on the present Geo-political threats and those mired in anti-USSR animosity need to be binned.

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 Post subject: Re: China spying on Australia
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:42 pm 
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Lava wrote:
...we should, therefore, leave it.


Absolutely, you should. Can't think of anyone who would not want to see that happen.


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 Post subject: Re: China spying on Australia
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:27 pm 
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Lava wrote:
wulfir wrote:
The solution to all problems must be an American withdrawal from Europe, and probably the Pacific.


Withdrawal is not a solution, it is an act. Where American strategic national interests are not in play, we should withdraw.

As for NATO, there are no American strategic national interests at play. It is a defensive treaty directed towards the Soviet Union, which, BTW, no longer exists.

If cooperation is required for some particular reason such as counter terrorism; the US should negotiate those treaties on a country by country basis. This is at the heart of Trump's foreign policy approach. Realistically, we should engage those countries who are actively fighting terrorism. That would include Russia, BTW, however, if NATO exists, there is absolutely no way we are going to get them to cooperate.

Since NATO no longer serves the strategic national interests of the US, and indeed actually interferes in the pursuit of our strategic national interests, we should, therefore, leave it. Other treaties need to be renegotiated based on the present Geo-political threats and those mired in anti-USSR animosity need to be binned.


In 2014, when Russia had recently annexed Crimea and embarked on its obvious war in Donbass. I might have quibbled about the "Soviet union no longer existing" point by saying something like, "Well true, but Putin clearly WANTS it to exist again . . ." And he does. But apparently he lacks the capacity to culminate those dreams. After 5+ years, the Donbass war still sits there, with the front in largely the same place and all of Russia's access (and support for their naval bases) to Crimea remains via their brand new, very costly and apparently high-risk (geological fault area, so the damn thing might get knocked down is my understanding) bridge from Kerch Strait.

It seems pretty obvious that they WANTED to regain access to Crimea from the north, but to do that, they had to push about 100km further southwest through Mariupol, etc., in Ukrainian controlled Ukraine. They tried to do this back in like 2015 or so, but failed.

Ask a Russia patsy and they'll tell you "Putin MEANT to do that" or "He's playin' this Ukraine thing long-game style . . ." Sorry, but I just don't believe that. They had a Russian loyalist in Ukraine for years (Porochenko) but Porochenko's corruption and loyalty to Russia eventually led to the Maidan Revolution, which apparently Russia never saw coming and had to scramble to try to suppress it. They were unsuccessful. What started out as a large protest and occupation of the center of Kiev grew to a MASSIVE occupation and a huge global media event with the theme being primarily "We stand with the brave Ukrainian freedom fighters . . ."

That was the context in which Putin finally regained some measure of the initiative and cunningly deployed a covert Spec Ops campaign and set about undermining Ukrainian authority in Crimea. It was a well-orchestrated campaign and proved to be successful. The Ukrainians were unable to resist and take back Crimea, but this also clued in both national military officials and would-be militia(s) that Russia was likely to take a more intrusive stance in the wake of Maidan, and by the time the Donbass "revolt" began there were enough Ukrainian forces in place that the advance of the "rebels" was held tenuously in check.

Putin, and probably many of the other oligarchs of Russia would love to reform the Soviet Union, but for now, it appears they are unable to even reclaim even ONE of their former subject oblasts. So it remains true that the Soviet Union is no longer in existence and is no longer a threat.

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