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 Post subject: Re: The Russian View
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:28 pm 
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Gump wrote:
Well Chijohn..... that seems to be a pretty stereotypical simplification..... whether it was "Owned" or owned by the state.... it was still their personal dwelling and belongings and jobs and ....and ....and.... It all vanished overnight and countless small scale wars got fought..... watch a few more videos of his...... refugees in almost all of them living in squalid conditions..... and people reminiscing about the good old days.... that's a completely organic and a truthful image.... Not some calculated message from a former Dutch cold warrior...



Quote:
that seems to be a pretty stereotypical simplification


Call it what you will.
I can base my viewpoint of what went on behind the Iron Curtain, specifically in Romania, on the experiences of family and friends of family.
Both my parents came from there.
My grandparents (3 of which eventually made it to the US) came from there.
Numerous cousins, aunts, uncles, great aunts and uncles and a hundred or more friends of my parents and family that came from there and relocated to the US, Canada and Germany that I have talked to on occasions about their experiences there.
I visited there twice myself when I was a child. Granted that I was only 5yrs old the first time and 8 the 2nd time, but I remember what I remember. And I have watched the home movies that my father shot of those trips. And I still keep tabs via social media with people that either still live or visit there periodically.

How many family members and people do you personally know who lived behiind the Iron Curtain?
How many times have you visited there while communism ruled?

Romania was lucky in that while there was a revolution that overthrough the dictator Ceausescu, it was short in duration and relatively bloodless (except for Nikolai and his wife who after a short military trial were taken outside and executed by a firing squad that fired more than 100 rounds into them). There was no civil war or conflict that took place.

Quote:
Not some calculated message from a former Dutch cold warrior.


Not even sure who you are referring to.

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 Post subject: Re: The Russian View
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:37 pm 
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You can bet that ciizens from different nationalities experienced the USSR differently. I have no doubt that Rumanians don't have fond memories of the time. The Rumanian SSR existed solely to provide oil to Russia and provide a buffer between Russia and the rest of the Balkans. On top of that, Rumania had Ceauczescu, who was hands down a cleptocratic, autocratic murderous tyrant.

My sense of the matter is that older Russians remember the USSR fondly because (1) being a member of the Soviet Russia that ate the Third Reich's lunch was by ANY objective standard a morally defensible thing and grinding the nazis into a blood pulp was by any measure a praiseworthy act, and (2) they didn't have it THAT MUCH worse than under the Czars, and (3) they had some measure of state provided security.

It also seems like, but I do not know, that younger Russians chafe under Putin's autocratic rule. They want more freedom than the state allows them, at least in political matters.

It really is unfortunate that the Drive Thru does not have any English speaking ethnic Russians who are citizens of Russia. I'd like to hear what someone like that moght say.

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 Post subject: Re: The Russian View
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:45 pm 
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Chijohn,
I imagine where you ended up might have some bearing eh ? A squalid refugee camp in Azerbaijan versus say... Chicago...

Certainly how your province fit into that Soviet hierarchy probably also makes a huge difference.... Romania was not well loved having been... you know... a Nazi ally....

I submit for evidence about 100 of that guys videos..... almost every one of them has actual former USSR people saying they miss the old days.... and show how it's all so severely decayed since then... And certainly it gives you a much broader picture of how foolish it is to attempt to characterize anything about the Soviet Union as a whole..

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 Post subject: Re: The Russian View
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:14 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
I think Gump's point is this: Never having a whole lot of personal wealth, they had a lot invested (in a personal sense) in the promise of state housing state pension and state subsistence subsidies. Under the old soviet model, in theory at least, a worker had a roof, three squares, and a retirement plan.

The breakup of the USSR basically disenfranchised most of the working class. Decades spent working for "the man" and zip to show for it.

It'd be analogous to the bullshit foisted on unionized American workers whose company pension plans were seized in corporate raids and converted into non-pension assets, while the pensioners received pennies on the dollar of the money and security owed to them.

Or, imagine if Uncle Sugar were to one day say "You know, this social security stuff, we can't affored to pay what we promised when we took that money from you for all those years, so you're on your own."


The Romanian government, under communist rule, and still today although to a lesser extent, was one large corrupt cesspool.

The dictator Ceausescu mismanaged the country into near financial insolvency. The country borrowed heavily from western banks and then was not able to pay the loans back when his economic ventures failed. To pay the loans back they exported most of the country's industrial and agrcicultural production in order to pay those loans back. Food was scarce.

And even so he thought spending money on things like the Palace of the Parliament was a wonderful idea.

What's the Palace of the Parliament you ask?

It is one of the largest buildings in the world.

Image

It took....
Quote:
Between 20,000 and 100,000 people worked on the site and project, operating in three shifts of 5,000 soldiers of the Romanian Army and huge numbers of "volunteers".[18] Thousands of workers died in connection with the construction of the House of the Republic / People's House, some sources mention a figure of 3,000 people lost.[19]


Quote:
In 1989, the building costs were estimated at $1.75 billion, and in 2006 at €3 billion.


The building contain 1,100 rooms and has a floor area of 3,930,000 sq ft.

Image

Those marble floors and chandeliers did the poor peasants out in the countryside alot of good.


They had to raze the "National Archives, Mihai Vodă Monastery, Brâncovenesc Hospital,[15] as well as about 37 old factories and workshops.[16] Demolition in the Uranus area began in 1982. 7 square kilometres (2.7 sq mi) of the old city center was demolished, with 40,000 people being relocated from this area" before they could start construction. It took 13 years to build it.

A short video on this building:



Again, this all occurred while the government was exporting the country's food elsewhere so as to pay its debts.

And that wasn't the only way in which the government raised money.
During the Cold War the government of Romania also "sold off" 250,000 of its own citizens for money.
The Romanian government had an arrangement with West Germany where a German diplomant would periodically fly to Romania with a briefcase full of money and in exchange, Romania would allow X number of ethnic German Romanian citizens to emigrate to West Germany. We are talking about 250,000 people and hundreds of millions of Deutschmarks.

How much trust can you place in a government that sells off its people like just another export good?


There was a documentary made about this some years ago.

Here is a short preview of it:


And here is the documentary:



Both are in German but with either English translations or English subtitles.

Quote:
they had a lot invested (in a personal sense) in the promise of state housing state pension and state subsistence subsidies. Under the old soviet model, in theory at least, a worker had a roof, three squares, and a retirement plan.


What the people had "invested" in the system was squandered by the very government that was supposed to be looking out for them.

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 Post subject: Re: The Russian View
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:24 pm 
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Gump wrote:
Clearly... Watch that old guy in the Azerbaijan video.... wishing some day he could just go back and see his old place.... How he says that tells you much...


I watched it.

He has a longing for his old homeland, which is a natural reaction.

My parents also had a similar sentiment. I mean after all, their families and ancestors had been living in Transylvania for over 800 years.
But that place today, that they left is not the place that it was when they grew up there, and it never will be the same.

My father has been asked on occasion if he would ever want to go back.
For a visit, perhaps.
To live there again, he said that he would never do that.

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 Post subject: Re: The Russian View
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:25 pm 
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You're taking my view a bit too broadly. This thread is "The Russian View." I'm only saying that Russians might view the loss of the USSR negatively because they had alot invested in its success.

I also said I can imagine why Rumanians would look back on the USSR quite differently. I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut that your average Rumanian peasant or industrial worker, to the extent that Rumania had one under Ceau, middle class worker, had a different experience than your average Russian peasant or industrial worker in Russia.

Thus, I'd be interested in hearing what an actuall Russian thinks about it all, in this thread entitled "The Russian View."

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 Post subject: Re: The Russian View
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:44 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
You're taking my view a bit too broadly. This thread is "The Russian View." I'm only saying that Russians might view the loss of the USSR negatively because they had alot invested in its success.


Agreed. Plus the Russians were essentially the 'head honcho' in the European communist sector.

The USSR was nominally in charge of most, of the Eastern European Communist countries, as well as of Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltics and all the 'stans'. And within that Russians were mostly in charge of the USSR. They were "king of the hill" in their sector of the world and after the fall of the USSR and its satellites, their world shrank dramatically. So even if you don't factor the economic situation of the average Russian, there must have been an impact in their worldview of things.

mdiehl wrote:
I also said I can imagine why Rumanians would look back on the USSR quite differently. I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut that your average Rumanian peasant or industrial worker, to the extent that Rumania had one under Ceau, middle class worker, had a different experience than your average Russian peasant or industrial worker in Russia.


That could be quite true.
As I mentioned, Romania didn't experience any of the wars that some of the Russian areas did; or wars like you saw in the breakup of Yugoslavia.

And to leverage off my response to your first comment, the impact on ethnic Russians who found themselves living OUTSIDE of the shrunken USSR--->rump Russia would also be an awakening. Again, some Russians went from being "in charge of things", to finding themselves a minority living in Ukraine, or Azerbaijan, or in one of the -stans. They were no longer the ones in charge of things. Again, economics aside, that would certainly be a wakeup call.

mdiehl wrote:
Thus, I'd be interested in hearing what an actuall Russian thinks about it all, in this thread entitled "The Russian View."


That would be interesting.
And for every different group (Russians, Ukrainians, or other ethnic groups) their viewpoints could vary.

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 Post subject: Re: The Russian View
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:50 pm 
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I worked with an ethnic Russian for a while. From St Petersburg.

"I like Putin because he said Fuck You to America. They have hurt us so bad."

Direct quote.


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 Post subject: Re: The Russian View
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:54 pm 
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It's pretty hard to imagine a province that was further down on the totem pole than Romania or east Germany... Those were Romanian bodies they were stepping over on their way around Stalingrad....

The destruction of personal wealth extended also to the emotional destruction of a "homeland" that so many were forced to abandon in the wars that followed.... So to imagine a Russian view or more correctly a Soviet view, you would need to take all of that destruction into account.... much to consider if you also have a view of what caused it....

You simply can't blame Russia for being less than cooperative with the globalist fantasies of the West.

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 Post subject: Re: The Russian View
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:55 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
I worked with an ethnic Russian for a while. From St Petersburg.

"I like Putin because he said Fuck You to America. They have hurt us so bad."

Direct quote.


He sound like a sore/sour loser.
The USSR lost the Cold War.

Losing sucks sometimes.

I suppose that there are still some Russians butthurt about this: "U.S. hockey team beats the Soviets in the 'Miracle on Ice'"

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