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What's your opinion of a workers union?
Mostly Good 38%  38%  [ 9 ]
Mostly Bad 54%  54%  [ 13 ]
Neither in favour or against/Don't know. 8%  8%  [ 2 ]
What's a Union? 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 24
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 Post subject: Re: Unions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:19 am 
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pamak wrote:


The whole premise of Unions is to strengthern workers negotiating power which suffers from the simple fact that workers are ALWAYS more than the number of available jobs. That is why you always have unemployment even when the economy is strong . When economists say that it is impossible to have 0% unemployment, they know what they are talking about.

In contrast, corporations do not have the same starting point. They do not suffer from a similar effect. They do not find themselves in a situation where production outpaces demand. In fact they will CONTROL production making sure this will never happen. It is this different starting point which makes corporations able to have an advantage and big profits and a cartel- "Union" in this case aims simply in expanding this advantage


That is not always accurate. Last summer as the economy started to tank, gas prices were $4+ gallon and suddenly demand for cars with low milelage tanked. GM & Chrysler found themselves with a burgeoning oversupply of cars that no one wanted to purchase. They shut their plants down for something like 6 weeks in order to allow stockpiles @ the dealers decline. Yes, the were able to control their production, but that was AFTER THE FACT.

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 Post subject: Re: Unions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:59 am 
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IMO the basic concept of Unions is good, but in practice they are like Islam in not allowing competition.

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 Post subject: Re: Unions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:46 pm 
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Quote:
That is not always accurate. Last summer as the economy started to tank, gas prices were $4+ gallon and suddenly demand for cars with low milelage tanked. GM & Chrysler found themselves with a burgeoning oversupply of cars that no one wanted to purchase. They shut their plants down for something like 6 weeks in order to allow stockpiles @ the dealers decline. Yes, the were able to control their production, but that was AFTER THE FACT.





Correct

as i said before they do not do it on purpose. But when they do find themselves in those types of situation they take actions to correct it and protect their interests. In this case you will not blaim them for fixing price or for hurting the consumers.
But if workers who constantly have to deal with a simlar type of problem (see constant unemployment since demand for jobs always exceeds offers), do something similar, things change.

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 Post subject: Re: Unions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:03 pm 
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pamak wrote:
and by the way let me give you a real life example of how the overproduction disadvantage is used as a tool of "blackmail" for Walmart to benefit from it.

In many cases Walmart approaches local small manufacturers in US showing interest in one of their products. So Walmart proposes a generous agreement where the small business will produce tens of thousands of products which will be sold all over US by Walmart
The small business owner is very happy to see that he finally gets the opportunity to become very rich.
So he kills all other lines of productions, borrows money and expands his business in order to meet Walmart's quote.

At first everything is perfect and all are happy. Then it comes the time for renegotiations when suddenly Walmart has the upper hand asking for the same product a much lower price.
The small business owner is in difficult position. On one hand he has to repay loans, and he still wants to make big profits. On the other hand if he refuses the new proposal he does not have the ability to sell all those things he is able to produce to his local community nor he has the infastructure to market them all over US.

The result is that he has less negotiating power and finally is forced to accept the new deal which will give Walmart a cheap competitive product and huge profits while he and his workers will barely be able to survive.


This is typical of what Lefties do. They find a few flaws with Capitalism and use that as an argument to scrap the entire system.

The fact is, Capitalism and free markets have created more wealth than anything in history by orders of magnitude. If Lefties had their way we'd all be herding sheep on the sides of hills, living in mud huts and scraping to survive.

Except, of course, for the small number of intellectual elites that will live like kings. I guess they all envision themselves as one of those elites.

His theories about how markets work are total crap and don't play out in the real world. Free markets lead to lower prices, innovation and value. Price fixing is rare and illegal and extremely hard to pull off in practice.

Socialism on the other hand leads to stagnation, complacency and ultimately poverty as you reach a point where the bloated infrastructure can no longer be supported by the backs of the workers.

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 Post subject: Re: Unions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:13 pm 
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Quote:
This is typical of what Lefties do. They find a few flaws with Capitalism and use that as an argument to scrap the entire system.


No, they just make up absurd scenarios that never happened. In the fantasy above, the evil capitalists at Wal Mart enslave some small business that makes widgets. In real life, Wal Mart has to pay the going rate for widgets or go without, as not everyone makes widgets.

iIf Walmart wants to sell strawberries, they have to compete with every other store that wants to sell strawberries. The farmer who grows them takes the best offer he can get, and if Wal mart doesn't make a competitive offer, they don't get any strawberries, and people go elsewhere to buy them.

Wal mart buys in bulk, and gets discounts for buying all the strawberries the farmer can grow. The farmer is happy with this arrangement as it simplifies his life. He does not have to hire salesmen to deal with dozens of potential buyers. If Wal mart will not pay the price he expects, he is still free to sell his strawberries to some one else.

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 Post subject: Re: Unions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:50 pm 
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doggie wrote:
Quote:
This is typical of what Lefties do. They find a few flaws with Capitalism and use that as an argument to scrap the entire system.


No, they just make up absurd scenarios that never happened. In the fantasy above, the evil capitalists at Wal Mart enslave some small business that makes widgets. In real life, Wal Mart has to pay the going rate for widgets or go without, as not everyone makes widgets.

iIf Walmart wants to sell strawberries, they have to compete with every other store that wants to sell strawberries. The farmer who grows them takes the best offer he can get, and if Wal mart doesn't make a competitive offer, they don't get any strawberries, and people go elsewhere to buy them.

Wal mart buys in bulk, and gets discounts for buying all the strawberries the farmer can grow. The farmer is happy with this arrangement as it simplifies his life. He does not have to hire salesmen to deal with dozens of potential buyers. If Wal mart will not pay the price he expects, he is still free to sell his strawberries to some one else.


You say something different which of course happens.
I am saying something else .
Remember the next time you visit Walmart or Target.
Compare two identical products , say Windex cleaner to Walmart's identical one right next to it.
Notice that in those types of cases the company's "version" of windex is cheaper.

Now both products are ordered in big quantities, so both will be cheaper in Walmart than in 7/11 for example. However the reason that the "walmart" version of the same product is even more cheap is because of tactics like the one i described before. There are other types of tactics also and if you are interested in this type of subject , all you need to do is go to a library and read some textbooks about business strategies aimed to educate the future CEOs of our society.

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 Post subject: Re: Unions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:54 pm 
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Quote:
This is typical of what Lefties do. They find a few flaws with Capitalism and use that as an argument to scrap the entire system.


This is typical of what Republicans do. They take a Leftist's argument and they scream that communism is coming....

There are many types of capitalism. Trying to find the best one for the working class does not make you a communist

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 Post subject: Re: Unions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:05 am 
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pamak wrote:
Quote:
This is typical of what Lefties do. They find a few flaws with Capitalism and use that as an argument to scrap the entire system.


This is typical of what Republicans do. They take a Leftist's argument and they scream that communism is coming....

There are many types of capitalism. Trying to find the best one for the working class does not make you a communist

Hear, hear,

Seppo

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 Post subject: Re: Unions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:49 pm 
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pamak wrote:
Quote:
This is typical of what Lefties do. They find a few flaws with Capitalism and use that as an argument to scrap the entire system.


This is typical of what Republicans do.


I'm not a Republican.

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That's the game plan of the chief prosecutor of the United States to combat Islamic terror.
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 Post subject: Re: Unions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:24 pm 
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sven wrote:
Unions are wonderful, I think pricing your labor into oblivion is BRILLIANT economics and has worked wonders for the rust belt and coasts.


SVEN!

Where have you been at, buddy? Still slogging through the fetid marshland of glorious Ft. Polk?


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