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 Post subject: Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:51 am 
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jack t ripper wrote:


If that is true, heads need to roll.

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 Post subject: Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:22 am 
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Was chatting with my mother last night who lives in Pensacola and she said this was big news down there and the "number" she said the news was bantering about was 22. She's old so... who knows, but would it be improbable that the USAF is minimizing the number because of the ramifications? I think not.

I mean, damn, I-10 goes right down the coast. They could have easily hoisted those birds onto trailer trucks and then moved them at night... even if that meant closing down 1 side of I-10.

To have left those birds in the path of a hurricane is, IMO, criminal and folks need to pay. We're talking billions of dollars here... equivalent to losing a nuclear aircraft carrier.

And BTW, the Air Force took a look at whether they could restart the F-22 production line and came to the conclusion that they could not.

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 Post subject: Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:29 am 
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Lava wrote:
Was chatting with my mother last night who lives in Pensacola and she said this was big news down there and the "number" she said the news was bantering about was 22. She's old so... who knows, but would it be improbable that the USAF is minimizing the number because of the ramifications? I think not.

I mean, damn, I-10 goes right down the coast. They could have easily hoisted those birds onto trailer trucks and then moved them at night... even if that meant closing down 1 side of I-10.

To have left those birds in the path of a hurricane is, IMO, criminal and folks need to pay. We're talking billions of dollars here... equivalent to losing a nuclear aircraft carrier.

And BTW, the Air Force took a look at whether they could restart the F-22 production line and came to the conclusion that they could not.


While I think that might have been a wise move for the Air Force, I am not sure that would have gone over as well with the public in general:

"Massive storm only days away, federal government closes one of the major evacuation routes to save airplanes"

Do you see the potential for that blowing up in the government's face?

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 Post subject: Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:49 am 
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Quote:
The GAO stated the estimated cost was $412 million per aircraft in 2012.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_ ... -22_Raptor

Here is the headline:

Massive storm only days away, federal government closes one of the major evacuation routes to save airplanes valued at 8 billion dollars, equivalent to 2 nuclear aircraft carriers.

There should have been a contingency plan to get those airplanes out of there in case of a major hurricane. There obviously was not.

Like I said... you start firing people starting with the Air Force Chief of Staff and keep going down the operational chain-of-command until you reach the base and squadron commanders.

3 Admirals lost their jobs for 2 collisions and a grounding in West Pac. This deserves about triple that.

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Last edited by Lava on Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:51 am 
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chijohnaok wrote:
Lava wrote:
Was chatting with my mother last night who lives in Pensacola and she said this was big news down there and the "number" she said the news was bantering about was 22. She's old so... who knows, but would it be improbable that the USAF is minimizing the number because of the ramifications? I think not.

I mean, damn, I-10 goes right down the coast. They could have easily hoisted those birds onto trailer trucks and then moved them at night... even if that meant closing down 1 side of I-10.

To have left those birds in the path of a hurricane is, IMO, criminal and folks need to pay. We're talking billions of dollars here... equivalent to losing a nuclear aircraft carrier.

And BTW, the Air Force took a look at whether they could restart the F-22 production line and came to the conclusion that they could not.


While I think that might have been a wise move for the Air Force, I am not sure that would have gone over as well with the public in general:

"Massive storm only days away, federal government closes one of the major evacuation routes to save airplanes"

Do you see the potential for that blowing up in the government's face?


Well if flying them out was not an option then the question becomes WHY?

If they were being cached there without enough crews or pilots for them to operate then the question becomes WHY?

Having an air base right in that particular spot might be a strategically wise choice. But leaving 20+ multi hundred million aircraft parked there (in a hurricane zone) without sufficient means to evacuate them quickly is NOT strategically wise.

I wouldn't be surprised if the actual number "destroyed" was zero and the actual number "damaged" was 1 (so far we've seen one pic and even that might have been shopped).

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 Post subject: Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:04 am 
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I've seen at least 2. One on a tarmac with 1 aircraft and one of a hangar with 2 inside.

Ya think the Air Force is going to film all the destroyed F-22's for our adversaries to see?

BTW, you missed my edit above where I believe that not having a contingency plan for moving those aircraft deserves the firing of the entire Air Force chain-of-command.

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 Post subject: Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:05 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:
chijohnaok wrote:


While I think that might have been a wise move for the Air Force, I am not sure that would have gone over as well with the public in general:

"Massive storm only days away, federal government closes one of the major evacuation routes to save airplanes"

Do you see the potential for that blowing up in the government's face?


Well if flying them out was not an option then the question becomes WHY?

If they were being cached there without enough crews or pilots for them to operate then the question becomes WHY?

Having an air base right in that particular spot might be a strategically wise choice. But leaving 20+ multi hundred million aircraft parked there (in a hurricane zone) without sufficient means to evacuate them quickly is NOT strategically wise.

I wouldn't be surprised if the actual number "destroyed" was zero and the actual number "damaged" was 1 (so far we've seen one pic and even that might have been shopped).


It wasn't a question of not having the flight crews/pilots.
All planes are subject to repair and regular maintenance schedules.
I suspect that you will (even during peak war time) never have 100% of your planes flyable at any given time.
When......
---You pull an engine for repair or replacement
---you are waiting on spare parts to repair the plane
that plane may/will not be flyable.

They cannibalize the parts from one plane to make another one flyable. Of course then you have to wait on parts for that plane.

The production line for the F-22 was ordered shut down in 2011, with the last plane delivered in 2012.
The producers/contractors that built parts for the F-22 have moved onto other planes/projects. Some of them are no longer in business. That means getting spare parts may not always an easy thing.

I suspect that, like the rest of American industry & business, the Air Force relies on 'just in time' deliveries and each Air Force base/maintenance site does not maintain a large stock of spare parts. When they need a part for a repair/replacement, they have to place an order for it to be shipped from somewhere else.

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Last edited by chijohnaok on Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:09 am 
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I found this:

Quote:
In 2015, for example, 67 percent of F-22s were ready to fly. Last year, the Raptors’ readiness plunged to 60 percent — the lowest since at least 2009.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your ... dy-to-fly/

That was from an April 2017 article.

Quote:
Managing aircraft readiness is a delicate balance between budgetary, manning and resource realities, modernization needs, training, and operational requirements, said Col. Michael Lawrence, chief of the maintenance division in the Air Force's directorate of logistics.

In most cases, aircraft are brought to the depot at pre-planned intervals — usually about every 400 flight hours for most platforms — for expected maintenance and to look for hidden problems.

"Just like in our cars, if you get the check engine light on the dashboard and take it into the dealership, they do what the manual calls for," Lawrence said. "We do the same with airplanes."

When it can, the Air Force also tries to conduct planned upgrades to aircraft while they're already looking under the hood, so to speak.

For example, Lawrence said, two of the Air Force's 20 B-2A Spirit bombers are now in programmed depot maintenance, and two others are getting modifications. Additional B-2s might need inspections or other repairs, which contributed to the bomber's slide in mission-capable rates last year.


Image

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 Post subject: Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:44 am 
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Well, there is ready for combat duty and then there is ready to take off and land.

It can't simply be pilots because you could fly in guys from another squadron on a C-17 in hours.

I agree with Ray. It seems an absolutely shocking level of incompetence and lack of planning. After all, it is F****** FLORIDA. Not like hurricanes are a surprise. Did they forget about Andrew? BEFORE you even base them there you need a plan. They could have 200 mph-proof concrete shelters. The could have enough commercial crane moving trucks for the entire wing and a planned route.

F-22 has a 44 ft wing span..so you would need an interstate.

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 Post subject: Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:30 pm 
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I participated in a Brigade FTX (Field Training Exercise) when I was in the Army where we had to move quickly from Ft Benning (on the West side of GA) to Ft Stewart (on the East side of GA). We used military trails specifically created and maintained for the purpose. Yes, the interstates were built to facilitate rapid military movement, but these trails still existed in my day. Maybe they don't now. They were a bit "bumpy" ... I recall watching tanks flying down the trail literally leaping into the air when they hit a "bump" ... but the brigade made the move ... in both directions, with minimal fall outs.

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