PROBLEMS IN CHINA

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jack t ripper
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Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA

#241 Post by jack t ripper » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:40 am

Yes, it could happen but you look at the Uighurs and you can see the Chicom central government still has tremendous authority and can command security forces to commit any crime.

The only reasons they haven't in Hong Kong are the international media access and the skill and PR savvy of the protesters.
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Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA

#242 Post by Anthropoid » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:56 pm

jack t ripper wrote:Yes, it could happen but you look at the Uighurs and you can see the Chicom central government still has tremendous authority and can command security forces to commit any crime.

The only reasons they haven't in Hong Kong are the international media access and the skill and PR savvy of the protesters.
And THAT I think is the key to why the era of authoritarian police states might actually be into the beginning of the end. We live in a different world now than we did in 1989 or even 2009. Mobile devices with cameras, high speed Internet connections and online social networks for dramatic imagery and video to be rapidly distributed to extreme distances and extreme audience scales are now 'common.' They are only going to get more common with every additional day. Whereas, we may have been filmed a handful of times through the 1990s, starting in this century ALL OF US, especially in highly developed nations, but even everywhere to some extent, must have been caught on digital video recordings more and more often. The whole world is a more 'observed and documented' place that at any point in human natural history and it is only going to increase from here.
This makes it more difficult than ever for a police state to maintain plausible deniability about the wrongs they commit.

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Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA

#243 Post by chijohnaok » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:31 pm

Anthropoid wrote:
jack t ripper wrote:Yes, it could happen but you look at the Uighurs and you can see the Chicom central government still has tremendous authority and can command security forces to commit any crime.

The only reasons they haven't in Hong Kong are the international media access and the skill and PR savvy of the protesters.
And THAT I think is the key to why the era of authoritarian police states might actually be into the beginning of the end. We live in a different world now than we did in 1989 or even 2009. Mobile devices with cameras, high speed Internet connections and online social networks for dramatic imagery and video to be rapidly distributed to extreme distances and extreme audience scales are now 'common.' They are only going to get more common with every additional day. Whereas, we may have been filmed a handful of times through the 1990s, starting in this century ALL OF US, especially in highly developed nations, but even everywhere to some extent, must have been caught on digital video recordings more and more often. The whole world is a more 'observed and documented' place that at any point in human natural history and it is only going to increase from here.
This makes it more difficult than ever for a police state to maintain plausible deniability about the wrongs they commit.
Mobile devices with cameras, high speed Internet connections and online social networks for dramatic imagery and video to be rapidly distributed to extreme distances and extreme audience scales are now 'common.' They are only going to get more common with every additional day.
True, but even so authoritarian regimes will still do their "best" (aka worst) to control things.
In China (not HK but the rest of Commie China), they use the internet and social media to control people and the messages that they receive.

Its my understanding that China's 'domestic' internet is controlled to a certain extent. Many "western" news and websites are not accessible in China unless you use VPN.
I don't think that social media sites like Facebook or You Tube are available in China unless you use VPN.
China has set up a system whereby everyone has a "social media" score (like on a report card). If your social media score sucks, then doing simple everyday things like purchasing an airline ticket, a train ticket, or apply for a job may be blocked.

And western companies (to my understanding Google may be one) were blocked from the Chinese economy for years, until the knuckled under and now are cooperating with the Chinese government is setting up filters and enabling blocked internet sites.



Whereas, we may have been filmed a handful of times through the 1990s, starting in this century ALL OF US, especially in highly developed nations, but even everywhere to some extent, must have been caught on digital video recordings more and more often. The whole world is a more 'observed and documented' place that at any point in human natural history and it is only going to increase from here.
This makes it more difficult than ever for a police state to maintain plausible deniability about the wrongs they commit.
That is true but even so the Chinese government can still restrict/limit access.
How long have the Uigher (sp?) concentration camps been around?
To my understanding news of them has only surfaced recently.
And where are the videos and photos of these camps?
I don't recall seeing any (or many).

And not just in China but in other countries like Germany you may find what you say restricted or find yourself criminally prosecuted for saying "improper" things.
Post on social media in Germany about how crappy the refugees are and you may find yourself fined.

In the UK, I saw the example of a woman who asked a police officer why the police were not enforcing the park rules against organized religion in the park (the Muslims were doing their 5 x day prayers in the park). The Police officer basically told her to bugger off and a week later police were at the door of her home wanting to question her about the incident (I think that she might have also been arrested).
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Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA

#244 Post by Anthropoid » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:37 pm

Technology can obviously be used to impose authority on populations, or for other nefarious purposes that serve an authoritarian power. No one said it is a panacea. But it is very difficult for even a highly authoritarian regime to exert complete control. North Korea, has historically been probably the most authoritarian regime on Earth. If memory serves, they were not even connected to the Internet as of a few years ago and might still not be. Just about the only country which engaged in any appreciable amount of trade or border crossing was China. I don't know the status today; they might have relaxed things. But the point is: even in that degree of isolation from global information networks, defectors have (again, if memory serves) reported having a remarkable degree of knowledge about major world events. A big part of how an authoritarian regime retains control are fear and lies. Fear can be achieved as long as people are not fighting back and there is a corp of ruthless police/soldiers on hand to carry out sufficient brutality, and procedures to convey information about that brutality back into the population. In some cases, simply "disappearing" significant numbers of people can be adequate. In the worst years of the Argentine police state in the 1980s, they were carting off scores of known dissidents in helicopters every day. 4 or 5 per flight; fly them out over the ocean 20 or 40 miles out at sea, toss 'em out, probably from about 2000+ feet so they are dead on impact. Lies of course are also fairly easy but here is where the disruptive effects of global information comes into play. How do you keep all possible information from the "outside" world out? Well to do that, you've got to (apparently) make your whole country even more isolated that North Korea was at its worst. Radio and television waves cannot really be "blocked," and even the most well-guarded border can be crossed. If people, or most people we'll say, are getting what they need and want, then a bit of 'leakage,' is no big deal. But when you get 5 or 10% of your population disaffected for one reason or another, you start to have problems.

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Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA

#245 Post by chijohnaok » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:41 pm

Anthro,

Here is another example for where that same technology can be used by a government to control people:
China Spreads Its Surveillance Standards Worldwide, Unveils New Crackdown On Phone Users’ Privacy

[snip]

AFP reported on Sunday that starting today, China will require telecom companies to collect face scans when registering new users to phones, which reportedly was met with alarm by Chinese citizens.

“Though the Chinese government has pushed for real-name registration for phone users since at least 2013 — meaning ID cards are linked to new phone numbers — the move to leverage AI comes as facial recognition technology gains traction across China where the tech is used for everything from supermarket checkouts to surveillance,” AFP reported.


https://www.dailywire.com/news/china-sp ... s-privacy/
facial recognition technology gains traction across China where the tech is used for everything from supermarket checkouts to surveillance,” AFP reported.
Let that sink in..l.facial recognition needed to purchase your fricken groceries.
Got a low social media score in China...well, who needs food anyway.
(I’m not saying that is happening today, but if the use of facial recognition is becoming that widespread, then the potential for it to be abused is made that much easier. )
Last edited by chijohnaok on Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA

#246 Post by chijohnaok » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:52 pm


But it is very difficult for even a highly authoritarian regime to exert complete control.
No one says that control must be complete.
There is probably a point, a threshold at which “effective” control is enabled.

Will you still have some dissenters, of course, but if they are few and far between, then their impact on that country/society as a whole may be contained.
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Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA

#247 Post by Anthropoid » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:02 pm

chijohnaok wrote:Anthro,

Here is another example for where that same technology can be used by a government to control people:

AFP reported on Sunday that starting today, China will require telecom companies to collect face scans when registering new users to phones, which reportedly was met with alarm by Chinese citizens.

“Though the Chinese government has pushed for real-name registration for phone users since at least 2013 — meaning ID cards are linked to new phone numbers — the move to leverage AI comes as facial recognition technology gains traction across China where the tech is used for everything from supermarket checkouts to surveillance,” AFP reported.


https://www.dailywire.com/news/china-sp ... s-privacy/
facial recognition technology gains traction across China where the tech is used for everything from supermarket checkouts to surveillance,” AFP reported.
Let that sink in..l.facial recognition needed to purchase your fricken groceries.
Got a low social media score in China...well, who needs food anyway.
(I’m not saying that is happening today, but if the use of facial recognition is becoming that widespread, then the potential for it to be abused is made that much easier. )
I see any blatant efforts by the PRC regime to tighten control of their populations as a regrettable positive development. How can I say that?
Chinese people have spent a generation or 1.5 becoming increasingly connected to the rest of the world. There have likely been tens, maybe even hundreds of thousands of high intelligence Chinese folks who have gone overseas for education. Many of these, as well as business expatriates or immigrants are likely spies, who are devout PRC loyalists for one reason or another, but it is impossible that all of them are 100% loyal. Even those which are mostly loyal will nonetheless act as conduits for conveying information about the rest of the world back to China. Not to mention the Internet (with VPN), travel, commerce, radio and TV from neighboring nations, etc.

All this to say: it is inevitable that some degree of accurate and detailed knowledge about the rest of the world is commonplace among Chinese today. A certain proportion of those people may discount it as 'mostly lies,' or 'who cares, I love my Commie party,' etc., but not all will. It is just simply human nature that SOME people are going to at least cogitate on these topics and out of those some are going to arrive at invidious comparisons. Every time the PRC acts to attempt to control its subjects more vigorously, these actions will have an impact. At the population level, that means that these fractions of Loyalists/Ambivalents/Unhappy but feeling helpless/Upset-Fuming-Want to do something/Actual dissident are going to have differential reactions, and those reactions are likely to be fairly predictable, but the net effect is NOT to give PRC more control, stability or predictability. It is to add unpredictability, instability and slipping control.

It might take 10 more years, it might only take 3, but I feel fairly confident we are going to see the shit hit the fan in China. They managed to retain control for decades because (a) their population was largely illiterate peasantry with little real knowledge of the outside world and few aspirations beyond owning a better yak; (b) purges, social intelligence informant networks, and rigid expectations about demonstrating loyalty and imposing punishments for suspected disloyalty were in place. With the advent of Nixon's policies these factors began to change and as the rulers have sought to harness the nations natural and human resources to gain increased economic and social power they have had to accelerate changes even more. You cannot vie to be the "Wealthiest and Most Powerful Nation On Earth" with a population of mostly illiterate peasants whose only aspirations are owning a better yak. Competing on the global stage today requires a sizable middle class, well-educated, and necessarily educated about things specific to the world outside China. All this to say: the desire to make China a Great Power in the early 21st century sense, is inherent at odds with the desire to retain the sort of rigorous authoritarian control that characterized the country for many decades up to the 1990s. The more China has striven to be a major World Player the more they have placed their grip on power at risk, and that tradeoff is unlikely to reach a steady-state where it simply stops. In fact, it is more likely to accelerate, spread and intensify.
In this context, flagrant efforts by the Communist Party to exert more control, like the ones you refer to, are likely to hasten the inevitable downfall of the regime in the medium to long-term, even while they may inconvenience and subordinate more people in the short-term.

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Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA

#248 Post by chijohnaok » Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:12 pm

https://www.wptv.com/news/state/2-more- ... n-key-west


2 more Chinese nationals arrested at Naval Air Station in Key West

Posted: 12:37 PM, Jan 07, 2020 Updated: 11:55 AM, Jan 07, 2020
By: Associated Press

KEY WEST, Fla. (AP) -- Two more Chinese nationals have been arrested for illegally taking photographs at a Florida Navy base, court records show.

The arrests over the weekend of Yuhao Wang and Jielun Zhang bring to four the number of Chinese people charged recently with snapping pictures at the Naval Air Station in Key West, Florida.

An FBI affidavit says Wang and Zhang drove up to an air station annex entrance and were told by a security officer they could not enter the property without military identification. The FBI says the pair drove onto the base anyway and were apprehended by authorities about 30 minutes later after taking photos of structures on the base.

The two had an initial court appearance on Monday and have bail hearings Friday in Key West federal court. Their attorneys did not immediately respond Tuesday to emails seeking comment.

The arrests follow two similar cases involving Chinese nationals taking photos at the Key West base. On Dec. 26, Lyuyou Liao was charged with illegally taking pictures at another annex of the Naval Air Station.

Liao, 27, is being held without bail. His lawyer argued at a recent hearing that Liao was on vacation taking pictures and that evidence of any crime is thin.
How odd is it that Chinese nationals keep doing this? :roll:
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Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA

#249 Post by jack t ripper » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:19 pm

I looked it up. It's chiefly a fighter pilot training base for all services. There is a system that records fight information in high detail 3 D for analysis after a training session.

Of course, there could be some classified thing not on Wiki. Perhaps some classified communication equipment for Southern Command, which is nearby. I think Southern Command has some drone control duties.
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Re: PROBLEMS IN CHINA

#250 Post by LaPalice » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:47 pm

The events in Honk Kong certainly played a role in the Taiwanese elections.

Taiwan election: Tsai Ing-Wen wins landslide in rebuke to China
Incumbent’s success marks dramatic comeback for party that campaigned against unification with China.

Taiwanese voters have re-elected incumbent president Tsai Ing-Wen in a landslide election that serves as a sharp rebuke to Beijing and its attempts to intimidate and cajole Taiwan into China’s fold.

Winning more than 8m votes, the most any presidential candidate has garnered since Taiwan began holding direct elections for the position in 1996, Tsai easily defeated her opponent Han Kuo-yu, whose Kuomintang party promotes closer ties with China.

.../...

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