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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:31 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:
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"The West" does have the capacity to IMPOSE a reformation on the Islamic world, just as "The West" imposed a reformation on the fascist/Tokugawan world.



I resp fitfully disagree.

It was one thing not to defeat the two major Axis powers (Germany and Japan), occupy and “reform” them into Western democracies. Germany has gen had some history of a parliamentary democracy. Granted, it had recently been fascist (as had Japan).
You are talking about 2 countries that had (off the top of my head) a combined population of maybe 150-175 million people.

Islam on the other hand has something like 1.2 billion people in 50+ countries spread all over th globe. Granted not all Muslim countries are radical but a concerted effort against multiple Muslim countries will likely produce radicalization in yet more countries.


True, but: nukes. If 75% of the major Islamic population centers were turned into moonscape, that would start off the hostilities with a rather changed dynamic . . . If I recall, U.S. alone still has something like 7,000 large yield nuclear weapons at their disposal. France, and Britain have still more, Israel likely has some too . . .

The Western Powers have the capacity to eliminate any rogue nation / pan-national entity they might choose to eliminate. But the criminality of it, and the sheer "enormity" and horror of pulling it off are almost as repugnant to consider as letting the Islams have their way . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:36 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
As a technical observation, killing 1.2 billion people is easily within the capabilities of at least five nations on this planet. Just sayyin.



Yes, theoretically it is doable.
Not as realistic though.
You have 50+ Muslim countries in Middle East, Africa, Asia, and additional tens of millions of Muslims in non-Muslim countries in Europ, North America, Russia, South America, etc.

You cannot simply kill (or neutralize in prison/camps) all of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Anthro, we can’t get the Western Powers to uniformly agree on anything (Iran nuke deal at the moment) much less for something as drastic as a wholesale nuking of the Muslim world.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:41 pm 
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Anyway, I think the first step is for it to become standard parlance to acknowledge that (a) Islam IS in dire need of reform and that (b) this dire need effectively makes Islam (not "Jihadists," nor any particular "extremist" branch within the Islamic world, but the WHOLE KIT AND KABOODLE) antagonistic, if not an "enemy" of our Western way(s) of life.

We are, it seems to me "almost" to that point. I wouldn't want this to evolve into some sort of racialist/ethnocentric hatred of all things Islamic or middle Eastern or "Asian." But "we" managed to acknowledge the existential threat posed by German, Italian and Japanese totalitarianism without getting too far carried away with ethnic or nationalist hatred so I don't think it is that worrisome that realistic appraisals of Islam will inevitably lead to hate and abuse.

It is disturbing when people who would simply state facts about the culture (Islamic culture I mean) are labeled as "hate criminals" or otherwise harassed.

The rental we have moved to while our house is rebuilt is a duplex and the neighbor is a late 30s lady who works for C.A.R.E. as a "global risk analyst." Her training was Area Studies with a focus on the Middle East and the Palestinian territories. I didn't find that out until we had already chatted a bit and I had inferred she was pretty cool, so when she did tell me that I said:

"Ah, so your studies must have involved a lot of coverage of Islam?" To which she affirmed. I then said "When was it that Martin Luther tacked his 95 Theses on the Cathedral door? 500 years ago? . . . anyway, it seems to me that Islam is in dire need of a similar type of 'reform.'"

That was just about the most "low-key" version of the conclusion I have come to over these past few years that I could come up with, and to my surprise, she completely agreed. Moreover, she indicated that it was widely acknowledged in many populations of Western academics who study Islam. The specifically irrational, dogmatic and politically correct zealotry that seems so typical may in fact not be as typical as we might think and that is encouraging.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:43 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:
Anthro, we can’t get the Western Powers to uniformly agree on anything (Iran nuke deal at the moment) much less for something as drastic as a wholesale nuking of the Muslim world.


I totally agree. That doesn't mean that the "capacity" for the necessary carnage is non-existent.

On December 6th 1941 FDR was still struggling to get the American people and Congress to uniformly agree . . . By December 8th that had changed completely.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:49 pm 
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“Western academics“ in universities may agree on the need for a Muslim reformation, but how much sway do these academics carry in non-Western Muslim majority countries?
I would speculate little to none.

You have Saudi Arabia financing the export of its Wahabi branch of Islam across the globe. They spend untOld millions in building mosques, and ship their Own Wahabist clerics to run those mosques.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:58 pm 
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The "Kurdish model" seems to have worked...at least in Iraq...for now..and Eastern Syria. Sunni jihadists in Western Syria are getting their asses handed to them by Assad and the Russians. The KKKaliphate is a failed dream.

Maybe a couple of decades of public defeats will cool their jihadi spirit?

I realize that seems a bit incomplete. I think it's fair to say the "Democratic Experiment" in Iraq has not yet borne fruit. The 6th Century retards just elected Muqtada all Sadr's party to run the Parliament.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 3:00 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:
“Western academics“ in universities may agree on the need for a Muslim reformation, but how much sway do these academics carry in non-Western Muslim majority countries?
I would speculate little to none.

You have Saudi Arabia financing the export of its Wahabi branch of Islam across the globe. They spend untOld millions in building mosques, and ship their Own Wahabist clerics to run those mosques.


Agree, though I'm not entirely sure what we really mean when we all say (and agree) with "Saudi Arabia financing the export of its Wahhabism."

By which I mean: I am very confident that financial and material support for various supremacist Islamic movements exported around the world originates from individuals or groups either in Saudi Arabia, or other gulf states, or with ties to those nations. Loosely, that means "Saudi Arabia" exports terror, but specifically it might mean that KSA is splintered into multiple opposing internal factions (similar to Pakistan, which I have read TRULY IS plagued by internal division, backstabbing and conflict) some of whom export terror while others which would prefer NOT to antagonize the West lack sufficient power to purge such Jihadist interests, else find it expedient to "play both sides."

My point is that: the nature of dialogues about the Islam Problem inevitably filters back into the Islamic world. The more we in the West agree that Islam is a "sick" belief system, criminal in fact, the better, because as that view grows into a consensus and perhaps even into a zeitgeist, this will influence of the internal power struggles within any given Islamic society, and thus increase the probability of internal strife or perhaps even real reforms.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 3:08 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 3:09 pm 
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jack t ripper wrote:
The "Kurdish model" seems to have worked...at least in Iraq...for now..and Eastern Syria. Sunni jihadists in Western Syria are getting their asses handed to them by Assad and the Russians. The KKKaliphate is a failed dream.

Maybe a couple of decades of public defeats will cool their jihadi spirit?

I realize that seems a bit incomplete. I think it's fair to say the "Democratic Experiment" in Iraq has not yet borne fruit. The 6th Century retards just elected Muqtada all Sadr's party to run the Parliament.


Yes, I would agree that the “Kurdish” model is working in the Kurdish areas of Iraq, but Kurds are not necessarily beloved in other places.

The Turks can’t stand the Kurds.

About a week ago I got into a pretty heated discussion with a Swede on a gaming (HoI4) Discord channel regarding Kurds. The impression that he gave me is that many of the problems with crime that they have in Sweden stem from Kurds in Sweden (he also had less than positive things to say about Somalis and Lebanese Christians in Sweden-they have criminal gangs).

I have also read about incidents in Germany (riots) that involved Kurds there.

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