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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:39 pm 
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One stabbing death can perhaps be seen as attrition but the Charlie Ebdo and truck assault and concert attacks were too gruesome and with too much video and photographic evidence to be ignored.

The problem for them is they have trouble sustaining that level of shock, which, if it could be sustained on weekly or even monthly basis would eventually provoke a widespread backlash that could be used to recruit thousands more suicide bombers and even armed uprisings. They are trying to make a billion muslims join the jihad.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:47 pm 
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jack t ripper wrote:
I disagree that their plan is to "cause chaos". They have a glossy magazine that precisely enunciates their goals.

1) The reconquest of all "muslim lands". This includes all of the Balkans, Malta, Andalucia, all of North Africa much of the Phillipines, some of Burma, part of India and almost all of equatorial Africa

2) Destruction of Israel and eradication of all Jews on the planet

3) The murder or forced expulsion or enslavement or conversion of all kuffir in "muslim lands"

4) The removal of "unislamic governments" in muslim majority states.

5) The imposition of sharia in all enslaved Islamic states...and pretty much anywhere there are enough muzzies to scare the locals away...France...London

6) The growth of islam

7) The demand that Western news media and even entertainment industry follow their demand not to be insulted.

8) Also that Western governments stop supporting Israel and leave all muslim lands

9) The eventual provocation of a final jihad against the "Romans" and the Jews as predicted in stupid Islamic end time prophesies

That's why pretending there is nothing wrong will not work.


All true.

But the last time "they" made an "offensive" that posed any risk of their grand plan gaining momentum was the emergence of Islamic State. Before that, it was the Twin Towers attack. So in 17 years, "they" have launched two "major" offensives, both of which have turned out to be strategic losses, or at least stalemates. Rather than millions or even hundreds of thousands of willing soldiers flocking to IS and it gaining a strong foothold from which to project Islamic power, they have pushed back into a prostrate defensive position.

In sum, the clash of Western civilization with Islam is proving to be a war of attrition which will extend over generations, perhaps over centuries, and not over a mere decade or so.

Sadiq Khan would like us to pretend nothing is wrong, that is true. But we can acknowledge that something is wrong, and that minds need to be convinced, and sound thinking needs to be promulgated, and sound strategies evolved without transforming our societies into police states. Not that I see any of us on this board striving to do that, and very, VERY damn few skeptics of the progressivist agenda striving to do it either.

But I DO see the occasional YTber or blogger verging out away from the rational middle/right of the field and over the thin ice above racialist/discriminatory police state.

I am still not quite sure if I am at peace with the idea that freedom of religion should extend to Islam, but I'm also not at peace with the idea that it shouldn't. What I am confident of, is that Islam MUST undergo a dramatic reformation in order to be congruent with Western humanism and international law. Moreover, the white-washing of this truism is the main flaw that has persisted in virtually all dialogue about the Islam problem. To put it simply: a "religion" which calls for violence or otherwise criminal acts against people simply because they choose to leave the religion (among other tenants) is just NOT legal, nor ethically-valid from a Western humanist or International legal standpoint. The right of EVERY individual to basic human rights extends to all individuals, even Muslims who seek to become non-Muslims. The fact that Islam holds deep within its tenants that apostates are not allowed and deserve punishment if not death is all one need to observe to realize that Islam really is no better than Naziism. It is so blatant true and simple, it is unbelievable that this point is not the central point in virtually all dialogue on the topic.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:52 pm 
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LaPalice wrote:
in a way, if that becomes a routine for the majority of people, that shows that there is a resilience, people continuing their life as if everything was normal. It is a defeat for the terrorists who want to bring chaos to our societies.
.


Yes and no.

I agree that is a good thing to be resilient in the face of such attacks, provided that your country is at ththe same time taking adequate steps to prevent/minimize future attacks.

If however your population is resilient in the face of such attacks but does little or nothing to prevent further attacks then that is foolish.

As Anthro pointed out, I believe that the Sadiq Khans of the world call more into the latter group, than th former.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:01 pm 
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jack t ripper wrote:
I disagree that their plan is to "cause chaos". They have a glossy magazine that precisely enunciates their goals.

1) The reconquest of all "muslim lands". This includes all of the Balkans, Malta, Andalucia, all of North Africa much of the Phillipines, some of Burma, part of India and almost all of equatorial Africa

2) Destruction of Israel and eradication of all Jews on the planet

3) The murder or forced expulsion or enslavement or conversion of all kuffir in "muslim lands"

4) The removal of "unislamic governments" in muslim majority states.

5) The imposition of sharia in all enslaved Islamic states...and pretty much anywhere there are enough muzzies to scare the locals away...France...London

6) The growth of islam

7) The demand that Western news media and even entertainment industry follow their demand not to be insulted.

8) Also that Western governments stop supporting Israel and leave all muslim lands

9) The eventual provocation of a final jihad against the "Romans" and the Jews as predicted in stupid Islamic end time prophesies

That's why pretending there is nothing wrong will not work.

I agree. When I say chaos, it is a situation where the Muslims can take the control of the society and install there their caliphat. And we should not forget that the Muslims play on two levels: with violence, they force their enemy to follow what they say (after all, nobody tries again to make caricatures of Mahomet), and by playing victimhood, permiting them to gain rules that protect their way of life (sharia...).


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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:06 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:
LaPalice wrote:
in a way, if that becomes a routine for the majority of people, that shows that there is a resilience, people continuing their life as if everything was normal. It is a defeat for the terrorists who want to bring chaos to our societies.
.


Yes and no.

I agree that is a good thing to be resilient in the face of such attacks, provided that your country is at ththe same time taking adequate steps to prevent/minimize future attacks.

If however your population is resilient in the face of such attacks but does little or nothing to prevent further attacks then that is foolish.

As Anthro pointed out, I believe that the Sadiq Khans of the world call more into the latter group, than th former.

Of course, the security forces must take the necessary actions to stop the terrorists. And that's what they do, and they stop many attempts of terror attacks. People understand that it is impossible to stop all the attacks and that one day or another one of them will pass. I don't recommend to do what Khan says as Anthropoid describes it. I condemn people like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:25 pm 
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I would agree that a “reformation” of Islam is needed, particularly as it applies to the most conservative/orthodox Wahabist-type branches.

There has been talk of this now for years, but unfortunately I see little movement on that front.

I have seen that a younge “Prince” with some level of governmental authorIty in Saudi Arabia has been shaking things up of late: allowing women to drive and some other things, but my impression is that his changes are more of a “social” nature and less a change to Wahabst sect of Islam in Saudi Arabia.

Any reformation in the Muslim world must be of an internal nature, rather than something imposed from the outside (particularly by a non-Muslim/.Western county) otherwise it will surely fail.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:32 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:
I would agree that a “reformation” of Islam is needed, particularly as it applies to the most conservative/orthodox Wahabist-type branches.

There has been talk of this now for years, but unfortunately I see little movement on that front.

I have seen that a younge “Prince” with some level of governmental authorIty in Saudi Arabia has been shaking things up of late: allowing women to drive and some other things, but my impression is that his changes are more of a “social” nature and less a change to Wahabst sect of Islam in Saudi Arabia.

Any reformation in the Muslim world must be of an internal nature, rather than something imposed from the outside (particularly by a non-Muslim/.Western county) otherwise it will surely fail.


"The West" does have the capacity to IMPOSE a reformation on the Islamic world, just as "The West" imposed a reformation on the fascist/Tokugawan world.

But the crux is that: it is an undertaking many times larger in scale and requisite duration. One has to consider: IF defeating the Axis had promised to take hundreds of millions of lives, 50+ years of fighting and occupying, an order of magnitude or more in finance, would even the "Greatest Generation" have been up to the task?

In large part, the difficulties relate to "anti-war" or "war-critical" elements in Western societies, but even without those elements sapping resources, the task of imposing a reformation on the Islamic world is one of the most enormous in human history.

They cannot, and shall not "beat us," but we also lack the resolve and the solidary hostility to "beat them." We must ride it out, and follow the same strategy we used to win the Cold War I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:49 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:
chijohnaok wrote:
I would agree that a “reformation” of Islam is needed, particularly as it applies to the most conservative/orthodox Wahabist-type branches.

There has been talk of this now for years, but unfortunately I see little movement on that front.

I have seen that a younge “Prince” with some level of governmental authorIty in Saudi Arabia has been shaking things up of late: allowing women to drive and some other things, but my impression is that his changes are more of a “social” nature and less a change to Wahabst sect of Islam in Saudi Arabia.

Any reformation in the Muslim world must be of an internal nature, rather than something imposed from the outside (particularly by a non-Muslim/.Western county) otherwise it will surely fail.


"The West" does have the capacity to IMPOSE a reformation on the Islamic world, just as "The West" imposed a reformation on the fascist/Tokugawan world.

But the crux is that: it is an undertaking many times larger in scale and requisite duration. One has to consider: IF defeating the Axis had promised to take hundreds of millions of lives, 50+ years of fighting and occupying, an order of magnitude or more in finance, would even the "Greatest Generation" have been up to the task?

In large part, the difficulties relate to "anti-war" or "war-critical" elements in Western societies, but even without those elements sapping resources, the task of imposing a reformation on the Islamic world is one of the most enormous in human history.

They cannot, and shall not "beat us," but we also lack the resolve and the solidary hostility to "beat them." We must ride it out, and follow the same strategy we used to win the Cold War I think.


That worked with the Nazis of with Japan because the Germans and the Japanese knew that they were the warmongers, that they were the responsible of WW2 and the death of millions of people. It is not the same with the Muslims. On the contrary, they think that they are the victims, among other things because of colonization, and that we owe them something, so it will be difficult to make them think that they are responsible of something.


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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:08 pm 
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Quote:
"The West" does have the capacity to IMPOSE a reformation on the Islamic world, just as "The West" imposed a reformation on the fascist/Tokugawan world.



I respectfully disagree.

It was one thing to defeat the two major Axis powers (Germany and Japan), occupy and “reform” them into Western democracies. Germany already had some history of a parliamentary democracy. Granted, it had recently been fascist (as had Japan).
You are talking about 2 countries that had (off the top of my head) a combined population of maybe 150-175 million people.

Islam on the other hand has something like 1.2 billion people in 50+ countries spread all over the globe. Granted not all Muslim countries are radical but a concerted effort against multiple Muslim countries will likely produce radicalization in yet more countries. EvEn if you do not have additional countries turn radical you will get individuals hat radicalize and will turn out for jihad (as happened with tens of thousands who left Europe for ISIS.

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Last edited by chijohnaok on Tue May 15, 2018 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Another Paris Terror Attack
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:25 pm 
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As a technical observation, killing 1.2 billion people is easily within the capabilities of at least five nations on this planet. Just sayyin.

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