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 Post subject: Re: Floride School Shooting at least 15 dead
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:46 pm 
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Gump wrote:
Quote:
That may be easier than you think ....in some places


Missing the point as usual and dredging up all the tired arguments intended to derail any discussion about methods that could help reduce the problem... Just like Hop Chop Suey and his 2 pistols... failing to acknowledge that he killed that many people because he moved between several distant locations. If you show up at a crowded high school with a pistol or a shotgun, you are not going to kill as many people as you can with an AR 15 with 30 round magazines.... So the point was obvious... why are submachine guns more heavily regulated ?



Quote:
Missing the point as usual and dredging up all the tired arguments intended to derail any discussion about methods that could help reduce the problem...


Want to know what could 'reduce the problem"?
How about the FBI do their fucking job?

Warning 1 to law enforcement:
Sept 2017 FBI is informed that Nikolas Cruz wants to be a "professional school shooter"
Even though they have a name (and can presumably request or subpoena account information from You Tube, they are unable to identify who he is.

Warning 2 to law enforcement:
January 2018 a person contacts the FBI giving them Nikolas Cruz's name, tell the FBI that he had a “desire to kill people, erratic behavior, and disturbing social media posts” and there was “potential of him conducting a school shooting,”
FBI admit that they did nothing.

Warning 3 to law enforcement (actually 36 separate visits)
Over this time local law enforcement had been called to the murderer's home THIRTY SIX times including a suicide assessment team.

At the point the FBI received the tip in January, they SHOULD, by their own policies, have investigated this tip.
They should have been able to cross reference this tip to the Sept 2017 tip about Nikolas Cruz.
Had they then made a simple phone call to the local law enforcement they would have been informed that the police had been out to visit there 36 fricken times.

Its quite possible that the FBI could have stopped this guy before he ever set foot in the school yesterday.
And they could have done it, under existing law, without infringing on anyone's constitutional rights, and without the need for further laws which may infringe on everyone else's constitutional rights.


Nikolas Cruz is ultimately responsible for murdering 17 people and injuring many others. His act was premeditated. He planned this and pulled the trigger.
The FBI was grossly negligent in failing to act in accordance with their own policies here. Had they done so they should have been able to connect the dots.

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 Post subject: Re: Floride School Shooting at least 15 dead
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:56 pm 
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Yep.. that would be a good idea too... but the fact that in this case there was an obvious legal remedy that should have happened doesn't reduce the need to consider other ways that could help derail the next guy without that obvious of a footprint....

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Last edited by Gump on Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Floride School Shooting at least 15 dead
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:57 pm 
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Nikolas Cruz was able to do what he did, not because the background check process failed, but because the primary agency for conducting background checks (FBI), failed to properly perform another responsibility of that agency...that would be properly investigating tips (See something, say something) referred to them.

And lets not forget that that in the case of the Sutherland Springs church shooting, it was another federal agency (the US Air Force) that failed in its step in the background check process by failing to report cases to the FBI to be included in the background check process.

How about the federal government (FBI, USAF, etc) do a better job at their existing responsibilities under the background check process, before you decide to expand the background check process (which isn't consistently being followed)?

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 Post subject: Re: Floride School Shooting at least 15 dead
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:01 pm 
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You can roll both of those criticisms into the obvious need for a more comprehensive background check system that focuses on mental health issues........ welcome aboard the gun grabber express... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Floride School Shooting at least 15 dead
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:17 pm 
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Gump wrote:
You can roll both of those criticisms into the obvious need for a more comprehensive background check system that focuses on mental health issues........ welcome aboard the gun grabber express... :roll:



You insist on "the obvious need for a more comprehensive background check system that focuses on mental health issues".

In case you didn't realize it Gump:

Quote:
The FBI's background-check system is missing millions of records of criminal convictions, mental illness diagnoses and other flags that would keep guns out of potentially dangerous hands, a gap that contributed to the shooting deaths of 26 people in a Texas church this week.

Experts who study the data say government agencies responsible for maintaining such records have long failed to forward them into federal databases used for gun background checks - systemic breakdowns that have lingered for decades as officials decided they were too costly and time-consuming to fix.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati ... story.html

and

Quote:
A federal database with the names of mentally ill people barred from buying guns still lacks millions of records it needs to be effective. A new report from Mayors Against Illegal Guns points to gaps in the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS).

The problem is that 14 years after NICS was put in place, states still aren't submitting all the required mental health records.


Quote:
But the Mayors Against Illegal Guns report shows 21 other states have reported fewer than 100 records.

https://www.npr.org/2012/08/16/15893252 ... n-database

The requirements are already there.
Will passing a law requring "a more comprehensive background check system that focuses on mental health issues" make a difference when 40% of states are not effectively complying with the existing reporting requirements?

Person A: 'I want you to be more comprehensive with your background checks'
Person B: But 40% of the states that are supposed to be reporting data to our database aren't doing it properly. Millions of records are not in the database. Doing a more comprehensive review on my end won't really help if the database that I am using has garbage data
Person A: But I want you to be MORE comprehensive. More is better.

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Last edited by chijohnaok on Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Floride School Shooting at least 15 dead
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:18 pm 
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maybe all that's needed is sufficient funding then...and perhaps more of a willingness to proceed... all that would be needed is a bit more public agreement on the subject and less paranoia..

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 Post subject: Re: Floride School Shooting at least 15 dead
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:20 pm 
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Gump wrote:
maybe all that's needed is sufficient funding then...



More funding by and to the states, with the understanding that they ultimately do it correctly.

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 Post subject: Re: Floride School Shooting at least 15 dead
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:35 pm 
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Saw this at Ace of Spades

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 Post subject: Re: Floride School Shooting at least 15 dead
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:45 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:
Nikolas Cruz was able to do what he did, not because the background check process failed, but because the primary agency for conducting background checks (FBI), failed to properly perform another responsibility of that agency...that would be properly investigating tips (See something, say something) referred to them.

And lets not forget that that in the case of the Sutherland Springs church shooting, it was another federal agency (the US Air Force) that failed in its step in the background check process by failing to report cases to the FBI to be included in the background check process.

How about the federal government (FBI, USAF, etc) do a better job at their existing responsibilities under the background check process, before you decide to expand the background check process (which isn't consistently being followed)?


The Carolina church shooting also involved a law enforcement failure regarding the firearm purchase.

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 Post subject: Re: Floride School Shooting at least 15 dead
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:43 pm 
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From Breitbart:
Quote:
Robert Lasky, the special agent in charge of the FBI’s Miami division, discussed the bureau’s failure to follow up on Cruz’ comments saying, “No other information was included with that comment, which would indicate a time, location or the true identity of the person who made that comment.” He continued, “The FBI conducted database reviews, checks, but was unable to further identify the person who actually made the comment.”

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FOX 61 has reported other comments from what appears to be the same account include similarly violent threats on videos across the website. Some of the comments include “I whana shoot people with my AR-15” (sic) and “I wanna die Fighting killing sh** ton of people.” It would seem that the comments were posted by the same account reported by Bennight, or at least an account with the exact same name as the one the FBI was made aware of.

In other cases involving threats on the Internet, the FBI took part in active investigations including discovering the users behind anonymous accounts. For example, the FBI has released their records on their investigation of #GamerGate, a consumer revolt against left-wing authoritarian politics in gaming that included alleged internet threats from both sides.

However, a quick search of social media would have uncovered the Instagram account of Nikolaz Cruz, where he brandishes a gun and wears a mask, the same Cruz who had been expelled from school for disciplinary reasons. Within approximately one hour of the shooting, users across 4Chan and Reddit had found Cruz’s social media accounts including multiple personal details. If reports are accurate, it seems that the FBI was unable to investigate Cruz as thoroughly as random users on an Internet forum.



http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2018/02/1 ... be-threat/

Might the country be better off by letting 4chan do the background checks for weapons purchases? ;-)

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