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 Post subject: Re: The Obama DOJ & FBI Conspiracy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:58 am 
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Saw this posted at Ace of Spades:

Quote:
ROFL: Manafort Jury Asks Judge to Clarify Meaning of "Reasonable Doubt"
—Ace of Spades
Tweet from @joshgerstein:

BREAKING: Jury in Manafort case sends note asking for legal definitions on filing requirements for overseas accounts, also for clarification on 'reasonable doubt.' Suggests jurors may not view case as a slam dunk. Story TK
The thing is, really, all you need to acquit is just doubt the word of the admitted criminal Gates.


I'm not saying that'll happen. I'm just saying that when your star witness is an admitted embezzler who would go to jail but for testifying that the non-embezzling partner is a super-bad dude, and used his embezzled funds to set up a love-nest for his mistress... well, that is sort of Walking Reasonable Doubt.

Friends and I are just hoping for this for the pure entertainment value of it.

The freak out will be... why, I don't even know what it would be like.

"Epic" is too small a word.

It would be... immortal. It would be God-like. It would a freak-out of God-like dimensions, unbound by space or time.

The Spin: Assuming that there is an acquittal (which I don't know that I would, yet), the snark from the Twitter Idiots will be: "Well, I guess that's the secret to Manafort's success -- surround yourself with liars and criminals even worse than yourself and you can never be convicted because your associates' words are worthless when used against you."

But this is always a problem when there are several criminals in an organization, all possibly guilty of the most serious crimes. You pressure one criminal to rat out another criminal.

But the guy who's ratting is going to have to admit he is a criminal and liar himself (no crimes occur without a lot of lying), and that he might get some consideration in his own sentencing if he testifies for the state... It's always a dicey proposition.

That's why in many cases the prosecution will offer some fairly light sentence in a plea deal.

But here, the prosecution decided to charge Manafort for over 300 years sentencing for tax evasion, and go the jury with their star witness, the admitted embezzler, tax fraud, adulterer, etc.

And they're doing that just to Get Trump.
Posted by Ace of Spades at 05:52 PM Comments


If the jury is asking for a definition of "Reasonable Doubt", then I would presume that:
A) some jurors are not convinced of Manafort's guilt
or
B) at least one of the members of the jury is not leaning towards a guilty vote and has raised the "reasonable doubt" thing as the reason why

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 Post subject: Re: The Obama DOJ & FBI Conspiracy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:52 am 
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It would be funny if the jury hangs or fails to convict. Manafort is pretty clearly a tax cheat and then the star witness is a tax cheat, cheated on his wife and cheated Manafort out of his money. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: The Obama DOJ & FBI Conspiracy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:06 am 
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I don't see any satisfaction in sending Manafort to jail. NOT giving your money over to the IRS seems a noble gesture to me. :lol:

What happens to Gates if the jury is hung? They secured his testimony because of the threat to him. They can't leave the guy twisting in the wind until a second trial?

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 Post subject: Re: The Obama DOJ & FBI Conspiracy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:26 am 
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The jury also asked the judge what a "Shelf company" was :lol: :lol: :lol:

The Mueller team is probably soiling themselves over that one. Sounds like this jury would have "reasonable doubt" how to tie their shoes.

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 Post subject: Re: The Obama DOJ & FBI Conspiracy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:40 am 
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Comments:

Quote:
Waitress? I'll have the Mueller Special: a big Nothingburger with Russian dressing, not very well done.


:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: The Obama DOJ & FBI Conspiracy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:16 am 
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jack t ripper wrote:
The jury also asked the judge what a "Shelf company" was :lol: :lol: :lol:

The Mueller team is probably soiling themselves over that one. Sounds like this jury would have "reasonable doubt" how to tie their shoes.



It sounds as if the prosecution did a very poor job in explaining its case.

If they were alleging tax cheating and/or money laundering and DIDN'T adequately explain what a "shell company" (I presume that is what they meant) was, then the prosecutor ought to be reassigned to a state prosecutorial office and assigned to prosecuting speeding tickets.

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 Post subject: Re: The Obama DOJ & FBI Conspiracy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:29 am 
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chijohnaok wrote:
jack t ripper wrote:
The jury also asked the judge what a "Shelf company" was :lol: :lol: :lol:

The Mueller team is probably soiling themselves over that one. Sounds like this jury would have "reasonable doubt" how to tie their shoes.



It sounds as if the prosecution did a very poor job in explaining its case.

If they were alleging tax cheating and/or money laundering and DIDN'T adequately explain what a "shell company" (I presume that is what they meant) was, then the prosecutor ought to be reassigned to a state prosecutorial office and assigned to prosecuting speeding tickets.


Well of course the Prosecution is likely to have done a "very poor job explaining its case!"

Saying, clearly "We have a very problematic case, BUT THAT GUY *points at Manafort* worked for Donald Trump, so we all know he is really bad, right!?" would've been shooting themselves in both feet and the ass! :mrgreen:

In sum: when you got a crap case, chicanery, innuendo, vagueness, and implication are all you got to go on!

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 Post subject: Re: The Obama DOJ & FBI Conspiracy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:57 am 
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The crazy thing is they never provided testimony about where the money came from,just that he spent a lot and had accounts in Cyprus. As for the bank fraud allegations, I'm not sure he defaulted on anything but it would sure be hard to pay things back stuck in isolation.

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 Post subject: Re: The Obama DOJ & FBI Conspiracy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:09 am 
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https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/reasonable+doubt

Reading this, it actually seems like "reasonable doubt" is an undefined term, in a legal sense.

Mathematics is based on a foundation including undefined terms, axioms and definitions. But undefined terms, like point and line are part of the structure. And yes, attempts have been made to reduce the undefined terms, but those efforts are more a part of philosophy than mathematics. Formally, mathematics is fine with the idea of undefined terms.

Maybe law is like that also? And if so, I'm fine with that.

It sounds like each judge or juror, in question must decide for him/her self exactly what "reasonable doubt" means ... and that means that ultimately, it is a subjective test. People actually have to use their judgement !!!

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 Post subject: Re: The Obama DOJ & FBI Conspiracy
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:44 am 
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Yes, it is deliberately vague because it is a matter of judgement. Thus the "reasonable man" standard.


Look at the OJ jury. Any idiot could see the asshole was guilty. A juror here could say "I don't believe the prosecution witness" with some validity because he is a lying, cheating skunk.

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