The Absolute State Of The UK Police

The rules: No spamming, no making a nuisance of yourself.

Moderators: chijohnaok, Kameolontti

Message
Author
User avatar
chijohnaok
Sergeant Major
Posts: 38033
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:50 pm
Location: West coast of the east coast
Contact:

Re: The Absolute State Of The UK Police

#1081 Post by chijohnaok » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:10 pm

Anthropoid wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:36 pm
Racism is not a crime. It is uncivilized and should be strongly discouraged at all times--even shamed when it is done conscientiously by adults--but making it a crime reveals a society at the tipping point of descent into a Orwellian nightmare . . .

I think that there are circumstances where I may disagree with you, based on the definition of “racism” and when it is a “crime”.

Yelling things at people?
Not generally something that should rise to the level of criminal charges.

Now if you are doing things like not hiring people solely based on their race alone, or someone refusing to rent someone an apartment because of the applicant’s race, or denying them access to your store because of their race, Is simply fining someone enough?

A first offense maybe?
But if someone (with a lot of money) were to keep offending and just paying the fine, then what?
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.
- misattributed to Alexis De Tocqueville

No representations made as to the accuracy of info in posted news articles or links

User avatar
NATO
Gunnery Sergeant
Posts: 5070
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:42 pm
Location: North Atlantic Treaty Organization

Re: The Absolute State Of The UK Police

#1082 Post by NATO » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:11 pm

NATO wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:10 pm
Anthropoid wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:36 pm
Racism is not a crime. It is uncivilized and should be strongly discouraged at all times--even shamed when it is done conscientiously by adults--but making it a crime reveals a society at the tipping point of descent into a Orwellian nightmare . . .
but is racism, whatever that means, not an instinctive human behavioral response? As in: I see the ' other' in front of me, do i like him?, does he like me? Can i trust him because he is the 'other' Can he trust me because I am the 'other' ? Do I instinctively dislike him because he is the 'other'? Does he instinctively dislike me because i am the 'other'?
Anthro, the (Botswana) anthropologist, shud add his 2 cents....?

Over here in Holland us crackers in major metropoli deal with people of color evry damn day given Holland's colonial past and the record of moroccan/turkish immigration starting in the 1960s.
I look at head-scarf cashier girls aged 18-21 evry time i buy a liter of milk.
I think it works out OK here in Holland, we smile at each other, are polite in the dutch language with another; some of them glad i cant see their hair under the head scarf(the fugly ones), others with luscious long dark hair uncovered.....omg 8-)
Dealing with black people (frm Surinam mainly) is the same. we all speak Dutch and smile at each other, especially the women.

Perhaps I am wrong and I hope so, but i believe daily, myriad black-white encounters in America are tinged with tension. Who is the racist first?

Anthropoid
Sergeant Major
Posts: 16742
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:06 pm
Location: marching home to [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAzVYCs4BMY]Erica[/url]

Re: The Absolute State Of The UK Police

#1083 Post by Anthropoid » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:03 pm

I will say again 'RACISM' is not a crime. Treating a person unfairly MIGHT be a crime. Harassing a person verbally MIGHT be a crime, etc.

I see no reason or value adding 'Racism' to any existing anglo legal conceptions, and indeed I see plenty of potential pitfalls given that "race" is a make-believe category without any basis in scientific understanding of human biology. It is a social construct, which means it is largely arbitrary or even wholly arbitrary.

nero
Sergeant Major
Posts: 20887
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm

Re: The Absolute State Of The UK Police

#1084 Post by nero » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:22 pm

Anthropoid wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:03 pm
I will say again 'RACISM' is not a crime. Treating a person unfairly MIGHT be a crime. Harassing a person verbally MIGHT be a crime, etc.

I see no reason or value adding 'Racism' to any existing anglo legal conceptions, and indeed I see plenty of potential pitfalls given that "race" is a make-believe category without any basis in scientific understanding of human biology. It is a social construct, which means it is largely arbitrary or even wholly arbitrary.
Racism is not a crime when you keep it all in yourself. But public expression of racism in various forms is criminalized in many countries.

Image
A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses. -- Carlo M. Cipolla

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens. -- Friedrich Schiller

CatLover7
Sergeant
Posts: 2917
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:48 pm

Re: The Absolute State Of The UK Police

#1085 Post by CatLover7 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:50 pm

chijohnaok wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:31 pm
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-gl ... t-51449162

Boy, 12, charged over racist chants against Alfredo Morelos

2 hours ago

A 12-year-old boy has been charged in connection with racist chants against Rangers striker Alfredo Morelos.

Police launched an investigation following allegations of abuse during the Scottish Premiership clash with Celtic on Sunday 29 December.

The boy cannot be identified for legal reasons.

Supt Mark Sutherland said that any form of abuse was "completely unacceptable" and that the force would continue to investigate any further claims.
Should 12 year olds be yelling racist chants?
Of course not.

Should the police become involved in something like this and filing charges against him?
An overreach IMHO.

Maybe send him to Miss Marples School of Etiquette for a couple weeks.
(NOW, if this is like his 5th time doing this, that might be different).
I never realized it until now but I committed a hate crime when I was even younger than this kid. I could have been arrested if this wasn't the Land of the Free.
A friend and I took the Long Island Railroad from Westbury to Shea Stadium to see the Mets vs Astros in '70. His older sister, who was around 15, came along to watch us. Imagine letting your kids do that nowadays?
My buddy's dad had front row box seats right by 1st base. Joe Pepitone was playing 1st for the Astros that day. He happened to have gone out with a high school girl that lived right across the street just the night before. We insulted him every way we could think of for several innings, mostly calling him a "fag" because he famously traveled with a hair dryer, but he ignored us. When we mentioned the name of the teenage girl he took out the night before, that got his attention. A little bit later the 1st base umpire came over and told us to cool it. Funny thing, we'd have brought her up sooner, but in our minds there was nothing to be ashamed of there. Old man going out with a high school hottie? We were trying to insult him!

Pepitone was quite a character. :)

Personal life
He spent four months at Rikers Island jail in 1988 for two misdemeanor drug convictions. He and two other men were arrested in Brooklyn on March 18, 1985, after being stopped by the police for running a red light. The car contained nine ounces of cocaine, 344 quaaludes, a free-basing kit, a pistol and about $6,300 in cash.[4] Coverage of the story by WOR-TV (Channel 9) in the New York area featured clips of an incredulous Pepitone declaring, "I didn't know cocaine was illegal", and his brother Vinnie, a NYPD detective, staunchly defending his character.[citation needed] He was released from jail on a work-release program when Yankee owner George Steinbrenner offered him a job in minor-league player development for the team.[5]

In January 1992, Pepitone was charged with misdemeanor assault in Kiamesha Lake, New York, after a scuffle police said was triggered when Pepitone was called a "has-been." He was arraigned in town court and released after he posted $75 bail.[6] In October 1995, the 55-year-old Pepitone was arrested and charged with driving while intoxicated after losing control of his car in New York City's Queens-Midtown Tunnel. Police found Pepitone bloodied, disoriented and mumbling as he walked through the tunnel. Authorities charged Pepitone with drunken driving after he refused to take a sobriety test.[7] Pepitone pleaded guilty. When asked if he was staying away from alcohol, Pepitone responded: "I don't drink that much."[8]

Pepitone has been married three times, all ending in divorces. He married his first wife, Barbara Kogerman, in 1959 and had two children, Eileen and Joseph Jr. In February 1966 he married Diana Sandre and had a daughter named Lisa Ann born in October 1966. He later wed Stephanie Deeker and had son named Billy Joe with her.

Pepitone was shot by a classmate at the age of 17 while attending Manual Training High School, the same week that his father died at 39 years old due to a stroke. He did not press charges against the shooter.[9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Pepitone
"Trump 2020 baby!"

nero
Sergeant Major
Posts: 20887
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm

Re: The Absolute State Of The UK Police

#1086 Post by nero » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:55 pm

CatLover7 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:50 pm
chijohnaok wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:31 pm
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-gl ... t-51449162



Should 12 year olds be yelling racist chants?
Of course not.

Should the police become involved in something like this and filing charges against him?
An overreach IMHO.

Maybe send him to Miss Marples School of Etiquette for a couple weeks.
(NOW, if this is like his 5th time doing this, that might be different).
I never realized it until now but I committed a hate crime when I was even younger than this kid. I could have been arrested if this wasn't the Land of the Free.
A friend and I took the Long Island Railroad from Westbury to Shea Stadium to see the Mets vs Astros in '70. His older sister, who was around 15, came along to watch us. Imagine letting your kids do that nowadays?
My buddy's dad had front row box seats right by 1st base. Joe Pepitone was playing 1st for the Astros that day. He happened to have gone out with a high school girl that lived right across the street just the night before. We insulted him every way we could think of for several innings, mostly calling him a "fag" because he famously traveled with a hair dryer, but he ignored us. When we mentioned the name of the teenage girl he took out the night before, that got his attention. A little bit later the 1st base umpire came over and told us to cool it. Funny thing, we'd have brought her up sooner, but in our minds there was nothing to be ashamed of there. Old man going out with a high school hottie? We were trying to insult him!

Pepitone was quite a character. :)

Personal life
He spent four months at Rikers Island jail in 1988 for two misdemeanor drug convictions. He and two other men were arrested in Brooklyn on March 18, 1985, after being stopped by the police for running a red light. The car contained nine ounces of cocaine, 344 quaaludes, a free-basing kit, a pistol and about $6,300 in cash.[4] Coverage of the story by WOR-TV (Channel 9) in the New York area featured clips of an incredulous Pepitone declaring, "I didn't know cocaine was illegal", and his brother Vinnie, a NYPD detective, staunchly defending his character.[citation needed] He was released from jail on a work-release program when Yankee owner George Steinbrenner offered him a job in minor-league player development for the team.[5]

In January 1992, Pepitone was charged with misdemeanor assault in Kiamesha Lake, New York, after a scuffle police said was triggered when Pepitone was called a "has-been." He was arraigned in town court and released after he posted $75 bail.[6] In October 1995, the 55-year-old Pepitone was arrested and charged with driving while intoxicated after losing control of his car in New York City's Queens-Midtown Tunnel. Police found Pepitone bloodied, disoriented and mumbling as he walked through the tunnel. Authorities charged Pepitone with drunken driving after he refused to take a sobriety test.[7] Pepitone pleaded guilty. When asked if he was staying away from alcohol, Pepitone responded: "I don't drink that much."[8]

Pepitone has been married three times, all ending in divorces. He married his first wife, Barbara Kogerman, in 1959 and had two children, Eileen and Joseph Jr. In February 1966 he married Diana Sandre and had a daughter named Lisa Ann born in October 1966. He later wed Stephanie Deeker and had son named Billy Joe with her.

Pepitone was shot by a classmate at the age of 17 while attending Manual Training High School, the same week that his father died at 39 years old due to a stroke. He did not press charges against the shooter.[9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Pepitone


:roll:
A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses. -- Carlo M. Cipolla

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens. -- Friedrich Schiller

Mac
First Sergeant
Posts: 8715
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:16 am
Location: The Cockney Paradise

Re: The Absolute State Of The UK Police

#1087 Post by Mac » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:42 pm

1566931925950.jpg
1566931925950.jpg (18.17 KiB) Viewed 41 times
I think I just committed a racism nero.
I could be the catalyst that sparks the revolution
I could be an inmate in a long-term institution
I could dream to wide extremes, I could do or die
I could yawn and be withdrawn and watch the world go by
What a waste...

nero
Sergeant Major
Posts: 20887
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm

Re: The Absolute State Of The UK Police

#1088 Post by nero » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:47 pm

Mac wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:42 pm
1566931925950.jpg

I think I just committed a racism nero.
Black fathers did end in trees, in the Good Old Times when there was order in the world.

And here is something for your racism.

Image

Attaboy.
A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses. -- Carlo M. Cipolla

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens. -- Friedrich Schiller

Mac
First Sergeant
Posts: 8715
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:16 am
Location: The Cockney Paradise

Re: The Absolute State Of The UK Police

#1089 Post by Mac » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:11 pm

Fuck sakes.
A man has been convicted of planning a terror attack at London tourist hotspots, just over a year after he was cleared of attacking police with a sword outside Buckingham Palace.

Mohiussunnath Chowdhury, 28, from Luton, spoke about targeting attractions including Madame Tussauds, the gay Pride parade and a tourist bus.

The former Uber driver unwittingly revealed his plot to undercover police.

He also bragged to them that he had deceived the jury at his first trial.

Chowdhury was cleared of a terror charge in December 2018 after slashing police with a sword outside the Queen's London residence while shouting "Allahu Akbar".

At the time Chowdhury told jurors he only wanted to be killed by police and did not intend to harm anyone.


Undercover officers, posing as like-minded extremists, had Chowdhury under surveillance during a five-month operation, his trial at Woolwich Crown Court heard.

The chicken shop worker prepared for his atrocity by lifting weights, practising stabbing and rehearsing beheading techniques, as well as booking shooting range training and trying to acquire a real gun, the court heard.

He remained emotionless as jurors found him guilty of engaging in conduct in preparation of terrorist acts, collecting information likely to be useful to someone preparing an act of terrorism, and disseminating terrorist publications.

The second charge related to a document titled "guidance for doing just terror operations" on his phone, which included instructions on how to kill people with knives.

Chowdhury was nothing if not prepared for martyrdom.

He'd collected knives for an attack, looked into firearms training and even made a list of what he was going to do when he got to heaven.

Top of the list wasn't meeting his maker, though. It was a tour of the palace he assumed he would be given.

Second on the unmarried chicken shop worker's list was to meet and consummate his relationship with 72 wives.

Only later - seventh on the list - would he find time to meet God; and his 10th task of life in the hereafter was "choose quests to embark on".

Mohiussunnath - or Musa - Chowdhury was obsessive about quests in which he played the part of a heroic martyr doing God's work on earth.

Read the background to the case

Chowdhury's sister, Sneha Chowdhury, 25, cried as she was convicted of one count of failing to disclose information about acts of terrorism and cleared of another count of the same charge.

The prosecution described his sister as "loyal, much put-on and long-suffering" but also as someone who was "aware of all he was saying to her and what it meant".

Chowdhury's defence barrister had argued the university drop-out was a "pathetic little man" and an "attention-seeker" who "talks and talks, but doesn't do".

Chowdhury also dismissed his praise of the murder of soldier Lee Rigby as "jihadi banter" and said his weapons training came from a fascination with martial arts and weightlifting.

But prosecutors said he desired to "unleash death and suffering" on non-Muslims.

Scotland Yard counter terror commander Richard Smith said Chowdhury was an "extremely dangerous person" who's intention was "to kill and harm as many people as possible".

In one recording from June last year, Chowdhury told an undercover officer he was free to attack one million unbelievers if he was fighting for "the pleasure of Allah".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51449757
I could be the catalyst that sparks the revolution
I could be an inmate in a long-term institution
I could dream to wide extremes, I could do or die
I could yawn and be withdrawn and watch the world go by
What a waste...

nero
Sergeant Major
Posts: 20887
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:43 pm

Re: The Absolute State Of The UK Police

#1090 Post by nero » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:29 pm

Mac wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:11 pm
Fuck sakes.
A man has been convicted of planning a terror attack at London tourist hotspots, just over a year after he was cleared of attacking police with a sword outside Buckingham Palace.

Mohiussunnath Chowdhury, 28, from Luton, spoke about targeting attractions including Madame Tussauds, the gay Pride parade and a tourist bus.

The former Uber driver unwittingly revealed his plot to undercover police.

He also bragged to them that he had deceived the jury at his first trial.

Chowdhury was cleared of a terror charge in December 2018 after slashing police with a sword outside the Queen's London residence while shouting "Allahu Akbar".

At the time Chowdhury told jurors he only wanted to be killed by police and did not intend to harm anyone.


Undercover officers, posing as like-minded extremists, had Chowdhury under surveillance during a five-month operation, his trial at Woolwich Crown Court heard.

The chicken shop worker prepared for his atrocity by lifting weights, practising stabbing and rehearsing beheading techniques, as well as booking shooting range training and trying to acquire a real gun, the court heard.

He remained emotionless as jurors found him guilty of engaging in conduct in preparation of terrorist acts, collecting information likely to be useful to someone preparing an act of terrorism, and disseminating terrorist publications.

The second charge related to a document titled "guidance for doing just terror operations" on his phone, which included instructions on how to kill people with knives.

Chowdhury was nothing if not prepared for martyrdom.

He'd collected knives for an attack, looked into firearms training and even made a list of what he was going to do when he got to heaven.

Top of the list wasn't meeting his maker, though. It was a tour of the palace he assumed he would be given.

Second on the unmarried chicken shop worker's list was to meet and consummate his relationship with 72 wives.

Only later - seventh on the list - would he find time to meet God; and his 10th task of life in the hereafter was "choose quests to embark on".

Mohiussunnath - or Musa - Chowdhury was obsessive about quests in which he played the part of a heroic martyr doing God's work on earth.

Read the background to the case

Chowdhury's sister, Sneha Chowdhury, 25, cried as she was convicted of one count of failing to disclose information about acts of terrorism and cleared of another count of the same charge.

The prosecution described his sister as "loyal, much put-on and long-suffering" but also as someone who was "aware of all he was saying to her and what it meant".

Chowdhury's defence barrister had argued the university drop-out was a "pathetic little man" and an "attention-seeker" who "talks and talks, but doesn't do".

Chowdhury also dismissed his praise of the murder of soldier Lee Rigby as "jihadi banter" and said his weapons training came from a fascination with martial arts and weightlifting.

But prosecutors said he desired to "unleash death and suffering" on non-Muslims.

Scotland Yard counter terror commander Richard Smith said Chowdhury was an "extremely dangerous person" who's intention was "to kill and harm as many people as possible".

In one recording from June last year, Chowdhury told an undercover officer he was free to attack one million unbelievers if he was fighting for "the pleasure of Allah".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51449757
IMHO those people who want to kill other people for religious or political reasons should be classified as criminally insane and put in a proper place. A place that gives the person an opportunity to abandon his evil ways by a proper treatment. No release without conversion.

Image

Just a thought. ;)
A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses. -- Carlo M. Cipolla

Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens. -- Friedrich Schiller

Post Reply