maddogdrivethru.net

Open all night
It is currently Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:19 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 176 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:29 pm 
Offline
Hair in the soap
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:46 am
Posts: 17423
Reputation points: 14050
Quote:
Iranian Major General Qassem Soleimani arrived on Saturday in the Kurdistan region to hold talks about the crisis. He is the commander of foreign operations for Iran’s elite Revolutionary Guards who provide training and guns to Popular Mobilisation




Soooo....

This sounds like the Iraqi gov't has officially become a puppet of Iran.

In that case, I wouldn't be surprised if not only the Kurds made a move for independence. Certainly don't blame them.

Terrible location, though, being surrounded by enemies.

_________________
..
.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:42 pm 
Offline
First Sergeant

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:50 pm
Posts: 9183
Location: Eskridge, KS
Reputation points: 10789
Well the Sunni's have been making a move (latest incarnation "ISIS") ... the Shitities have made a BIG move ... (they run the joint now) ... so the johnny come latelys ... the kurds are now making their move ... there is no "iraq" ... hasn't been for a long time ... probably never was ...

_________________
Go trumpf Go !!!
(will the resident return to being the President?)
(will the rainbow shack return to being the White House?)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:11 am 
Offline
Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:09 am
Posts: 1230
Location: On the beach
Reputation points: 4228
EUBanana wrote:

Ultimately the people are supposedly sovereign not the government, that's what it boils down to. With Catalonia they need a free and fair vote asap to end the issue one way or another.


And that is exactly the end game that the central government is moving on. New elections.

I do believe, however, that the stage was set by Prime Minister David Cameron when he allowed 2 referendums without any qualification as to where the bar was set for "winning." A view that a simple majority is somehow representative of the majority of the people is utter nonsense especially where sovereignty is considered. Even if you get 80% of the voters to vote, a simple majority in fact means that only 40% of the population is in favor. That is why in all things "constitutional" the normal voter threshold is 2/3rds. Thus, if you have 80% of the voters actually voting and they receive 2/3rds of the vote on a particular issue, it means that you can be sure that the actual majority of the voters are in favor. A 2/3rds majority with 80% voter participation means that 53% of the entire voting population is in favor.

So in some ways, we can trace the problems of Catalonia back to David Cameron. And the consequences of his actions may also be in play in California.

Now, it has been reported that Rejoy has received support from the Socialists in return for constitutional reform. But one thing can be guaranteed, if they do reform the constitution to allow a province to secede, it will require a 2/3rds majority.

The Catalans know that. And they know receiving a 2/3rds majority of the vote for independence is totally beyond their reach.

_________________
"In this present crisis, Government is not the solution to our problem; Government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan

"Because in America, we don't worship Government; we worship God." - Donald Trump


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:30 am 
Offline
First Sergeant

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:50 pm
Posts: 9183
Location: Eskridge, KS
Reputation points: 10789
Quote:
... we can trace the problems of Catalonia back to David Cameron ...


Dang, and I figured it went back MUCH further than that ... though history (and pre-history) of this area is not within my normal area of study ...

From the wiki ...

Quote:
Catalonia is an autonomous community of Spain located on the eastern extremity of the Iberian Peninsula. It is designated as a nationality by its Statute of Autonomy. Catalonia consists of four provinces: Barcelona, Girona, Lleida, and Tarragona. The capital and largest city is Barcelona, the second-most populated municipality in Spain and the core of the seventh most populous urban area in the European Union. Catalonia comprises most of the territory of the former Principality of Catalonia (with the remainder Roussillon now part of France's Pyrénées-Orientales). It is bordered by France and Andorra to the north, the Mediterranean Sea to the east, and the Spanish autonomous communities of Aragon to the west and Valencia to the south. The official languages are Catalan, Spanish, and the Aranese dialect of Occitan.
In the late 8th century, the counties of the March of Gothia and the Hispanic March were established by the Frankish kingdom as feudatory vassals across and near the eastern Pyrenees as a defensive barrier against Muslim invasions. The eastern counties of these marches were united under the rule of the Frankish vassal the Count of Barcelona, and were later called Catalonia. In 1137, Catalonia and the Kingdom of Aragon were united by marriage under the Crown of Aragon, and the Principality of Catalonia became the base for the Crown of Aragon's naval power and expansionism in the Mediterranean. In the later Middle Ages Catalan literature flourished. Between 1469 and 1516, the King of Aragon and the Queen of Castile married and ruled their kingdoms together, retaining all their distinct institutions, Courts (parliament), and constitutions.
During the Franco-Spanish War (1635–1659), Catalonia revolted (1640–1652) against a large and burdensome presence of the Royal army in its territory, becoming a republic under French protection. Within a brief period France took full control of Catalonia, at a high economic cost for Catalonia, until it was largely reconquered by the Spanish army. Under the terms of the Treaty of the Pyrenees in 1659, which ended the wider Franco-Spanish War, the Spanish Crown ceded the northern parts of Catalonia, mostly incorporated in the county of Roussillon, to France. During the War of the Spanish Succession (1701–1714), the Crown of Aragon sided against the Bourbon Philip V of Spain, whose subsequent victory led to the abolition of Castilian institutions in all of Spain and the replacement of Latin and other languages (such as Catalan) with Spanish in legal documents.
In the nineteenth century, Catalonia was severely affected by the Napoleonic and Carlist Wars. In the second half of the century, Catalonia experienced significant industrialisation. As wealth from the industrial expansion grew, Catalonia saw a cultural renaissance coupled with incipient nationalism while several workers movements appeared. In 1914, the four Catalan provinces formed a Commonwealth, and with the return of democracy during the Second Spanish Republic (1931–1939), the Generalitat of Catalonia was restored as an autonomous government. After the Spanish Civil War, the Francoist dictatorship enacted repressive measures, abolishing Catalan institutions and banning the official use of the Catalan language again. From the late 1950s through to the early 1970s, Catalonia saw rapid economic growth, drawing many workers from across Spain, making Barcelona one of Europe's largest industrial metropolitan areas and turning Catalonia into a major tourist destination. Since the Spanish transition to democracy (1975–1982), Catalonia has regained considerable local autonomy in political, educational, environmental, and cultural affairs and is now one of the most economically dynamic communities of Spain.

_________________
Go trumpf Go !!!
(will the resident return to being the President?)
(will the rainbow shack return to being the White House?)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:36 am 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:44 am
Posts: 10680
Reputation points: 11448
Lava wrote:
EUBanana wrote:

Ultimately the people are supposedly sovereign not the government, that's what it boils down to. With Catalonia they need a free and fair vote asap to end the issue one way or another.


And that is exactly the end game that the central government is moving on. New elections.

I do believe, however, that the stage was set by Prime Minister David Cameron when he allowed 2 referendums without any qualification as to where the bar was set for "winning." A view that a simple majority is somehow representative of the majority of the people is utter nonsense especially where sovereignty is considered. Even if you get 80% of the voters to vote, a simple majority in fact means that only 40% of the population is in favor. That is why in all things "constitutional" the normal voter threshold is 2/3rds. Thus, if you have 80% of the voters actually voting and they receive 2/3rds of the vote on a particular issue, it means that you can be sure that the actual majority of the voters are in favor. A 2/3rds majority with 80% voter participation means that 53% of the entire voting population is in favor.

So in some ways, we can trace the problems of Catalonia back to David Cameron.


David Cameron was also elected on his promises of referenda. It wasn't a referendum in a vacuum, it was after repeated votes to secure one in the first place; in the case of Scotland there was voting in the Scottish parliament that triggered it all. Even now today the SNP have a massive majority in the Scottish parliament, thats the main reason they got their referendum.

The main reason why the UK got an EU referendum is because UKIP was getting 15% of the vote and holding a gun to the Tory head. And so the Tories promised a referendum in their manifesto, squeaked an outright victory probably on the back of that, and *shock* actually kept their promises. Seems reasonable to me.

As for turnouts, supermajorities and the like, those who don't vote are not 'voters' and cannot be considered supporters of either side. They don't count.

Regarding David Cameron's culpability - there's no written constitution in the UK, merely the fact that Parliament runs the country and is elected a minimum of once every 5 years. Beyond that there is no Holy Writ which cannot be contravened without a supermajority, so talk of "constitutional issues" is not relevant in the context of the UK, all law is equal. There is convention however and what is politically expected, and a convention has developed that a government can't just run roughshod over current constitutional arrangements (Scottish devolution for example) without a referendum. This seems entirely fair and just to me - you have to vote for a party that will promise a referendum on a given issue, and then the referendum will confirm it so it's not merely a party political issue. If Parliament wants to do something major like abolish the monarchy, a manifesto promise followed by a referendum and a simple majority would be no problem for me, and I can't really see a good argument against that. That the UK has a better record than Spain on human rights and respecting the will of the people is most definitely not a surprise to me, of course. 8-)

Specific to Catalonia, if a majority of the politically engaged public in a territory want national independence I can't see how the territory can be justly governed from afar. Requiring huge majorities seems to be silly. The territory could be made ungovernable with strikes and the like ,and besides, what's the goal? why would you want to cling on? the preservation of the Spanish state? why do you care? States are only legitimate insofar as they represent a united demos of people who at least share allegiance and common identity. Catalans, and Scots for that matter, don't really have that shared allegiance it seems. Catalonia has a history of independent thought and proto-nationhood for a long time too, it's not just a flash in the pan thing, a moment of craziness or fickle whim on the part of the Catalans. Spain equally has a history of repressing them.

_________________
“The gap in EU finances arising from the United Kingdom’s withdrawal and from the financing needs of new priorities need to be clearly acknowledged.” - Mario Monti


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:48 am 
Offline
Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:09 am
Posts: 1230
Location: On the beach
Reputation points: 4228
All the provinces in Spain are considered to be autonomous regions. There is no country in the world which gives more power to the autonomous regions than Spain. This decentralization of power was one of the main factors in the writing of their constitution. So all the provinces run themselves in the way they see fit. For example, Spain has universal health care. But how that is administered is determines by the provinces. Because of this, however, a person from Seville, for example, if he has an accident in Madrid may see delays in treatment because the two provinces use software that cannot talk to each other.

It never ceases to amaze me that for a country with such great suspicion of central power, that they are perhaps the biggest supporter of the European Union.

_________________
"In this present crisis, Government is not the solution to our problem; Government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan

"Because in America, we don't worship Government; we worship God." - Donald Trump


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:56 am 
Offline
First Sergeant

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:50 pm
Posts: 9183
Location: Eskridge, KS
Reputation points: 10789
Per banana's chart Spain is the third largest receiver of cargo from the eeee yew ... of course they are supporters !!!! :)

_________________
Go trumpf Go !!!
(will the resident return to being the President?)
(will the rainbow shack return to being the White House?)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:04 pm 
Offline
Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:09 am
Posts: 1230
Location: On the beach
Reputation points: 4228
EUBanana wrote:
As for turnouts, supermajorities and the like, those who don't vote are not 'voters' and cannot be considered supporters of either side. They don't count.


That is when I stopped reading. ALL citizens are equally protected by their constitution whether they vote or not.

To think that these folks "don't count" is absolutely ridiculous.

To ensure the rights of ALL citizens, (including those that don't vote because you cannot presume nothing as to their desires) that is why constitutions require a 2/3rds vote on matters of great import.

_________________
"In this present crisis, Government is not the solution to our problem; Government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan

"Because in America, we don't worship Government; we worship God." - Donald Trump


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:34 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:19 pm
Posts: 23621
Reputation points: 16056
Supermajority votes do make sense on matters such as changing a constitution but one also can't change the rules after a referendum (Brexit) when the votes are tallied just because the outcome is deemed unfavorable.

The Catalonia vote was, strictly speaking, unconstitutional but the central government is clearly going to have to give on something if only for the sake of economic stability and political peace.

_________________
I haven't figured out how to the block thingy works but if anyone alters my posts I will become really, really angry and throw monkey poop out of my cage.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:51 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:44 am
Posts: 10680
Reputation points: 11448
Lava wrote:
EUBanana wrote:
As for turnouts, supermajorities and the like, those who don't vote are not 'voters' and cannot be considered supporters of either side. They don't count.


That is when I stopped reading. ALL citizens are equally protected by their constitution whether they vote or not.

To think that these folks "don't count" is absolutely ridiculous.

To ensure the rights of ALL citizens, (including those that don't vote because you cannot presume nothing as to their desires) that is why constitutions require a 2/3rds vote on matters of great import.


Their rights in this instance are the right to self determination, the only one trampling those rights are the Spanish state. If people choose not to exercise that right, that's their choice. Requiring some entirely arbitrary percentage is just that: arbitrary. And not consistent; after all, going by your argument you'd deprive 20% of the population of their rights? Is there some percentage at which point that magically becomes acceptable?

The Spanish state, conversely, has no intrinsic right to exist at all.

_________________
“The gap in EU finances arising from the United Kingdom’s withdrawal and from the financing needs of new priorities need to be clearly acknowledged.” - Mario Monti


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 176 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group