maddogdrivethru.net

Open all night
It is currently Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:21 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 176 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 ... 18  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:14 pm 
Offline
Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:09 am
Posts: 1230
Location: On the beach
Reputation points: 4228
mdiehl wrote:
How can you know that the majority oppose if the gov't won't allow even a nonbinding referendum?


Actually, given how you have reacted in this thread concerning another sovereign country with a Constitution (which includes a process for amending like all constitutions) approved by 91% of the people, I would have thought you would said it would only take a referendum to proceed with succession of a state such as California.

What is good enough for one Republic should also be good enough for another, no?

_________________
"In this present crisis, Government is not the solution to our problem; Government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan

"Because in America, we don't worship Government; we worship God." - Donald Trump


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:16 pm 
Offline
First Sergeant

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:50 pm
Posts: 9183
Location: Eskridge, KS
Reputation points: 10789
The USA withdrew from British rule. Legal or not depends on who wins and who you ask. If the Cats have the guns and the will, seems like they could withdraw.

_________________
Go trumpf Go !!!
(will the resident return to being the President?)
(will the rainbow shack return to being the White House?)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:09 pm 
Offline
Hair in the soap
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:46 am
Posts: 17423
Reputation points: 14050
Lava wrote:

California is a great example. I understand there is movement towards succession there. However, before California as a state started mumbling about succession, the folks in Northern California were saying they want their own state.

So it is not only urban and rural it is also regional.



Okay. Now I think you're triggering my inner OCD grammar nazi on purpose, Ray.

:P

_________________
..
.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:38 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:19 pm
Posts: 23621
Reputation points: 16056
:lol:

_________________
I haven't figured out how to the block thingy works but if anyone alters my posts I will become really, really angry and throw monkey poop out of my cage.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:53 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 pm
Posts: 19611
Reputation points: 11823
Lava wrote:
mdiehl wrote:
You asked the board to name the article which makes such a thing possible, I did.


And you gave a clearly impossible answer.


You are incorrect. I gave a constitutionally correct answer, therby succeeding at providing you with the Article that makes it possible. You were and continue to be wrong.

_________________
"Fuck the king." - Sandor Clegane

"And the story was whatever was the song what it was." - Dire Straits


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:58 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 pm
Posts: 19611
Reputation points: 11823
Lava wrote:
mdiehl wrote:
How can you know that the majority oppose if the gov't won't allow even a nonbinding referendum?


Actually, given how you have reacted in this thread concerning another sovereign country with a Constitution (which includes a process for amending like all constitutions) approved by 91% of the people, I would have thought you would said it would only take a referendum to proceed with succession of a state such as California.

What is good enough for one Republic should also be good enough for another, no?


You seem emotionally a wreck and your facility with reason is clouded. Perhaps you imagine I said Catalonia should suceed. I did not. I did ask how you can know what Catalonians want absent a referendum. The US is not at issue here. CA has not evinced a secession movement and if they wanted to there is a US Constitutional process. That's the US standard. So your tearful handwringing and histrionics are rather unimportant.

So answer the question. How can you know what Catalonians want if you don't allow a referendum? Heck, even Canada lets the Quebecois hold referenda on the matter.

What do you fear? Loss of tax revenue? Customers? Diminished federal power?

_________________
"Fuck the king." - Sandor Clegane

"And the story was whatever was the song what it was." - Dire Straits


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:30 am 
Offline
Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:09 am
Posts: 1230
Location: On the beach
Reputation points: 4228
mdiehl wrote:
You are incorrect. I gave a constitutionally correct answer, therby succeeding at providing you with the Article that makes it possible. You were and continue to be wrong.


A Constitution amendment allowing California, for example, to leave the US would never see the light of day.

That is not how Constitutions are written, nor the intended function of amendments.

That is not to say that an amendment could not be made which would set forth the process for states to secede.

You know, I always read your posts with consideration. But when you are opposed your reaction can be quite juvenile as is the case here.

As for Catalonia leaving or not... I have no dog in that hunt. Could care less.

_________________
"In this present crisis, Government is not the solution to our problem; Government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan

"Because in America, we don't worship Government; we worship God." - Donald Trump


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:33 am 
Offline
First Sergeant

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:50 pm
Posts: 9183
Location: Eskridge, KS
Reputation points: 10789
For well over 150 yrs the Brits have operated, more or less, with the principle of the right to self-determination for their possessions. The first "modern" instance of this principle being put into practice (that I can remember) was the transfer of the Ionian Islands to Greece in the 1850s ...

I also sign up for this idea ... let the people decide ...

So, if the Cats people have the will to break away, understanding that it might be a bloody affair, then in moral terms, it is fine by me.

I feel that to say otherwise, would be to speak against the USA break away from Britain.

==

The Kurds are also trying to "break away" ...

Quote:
Kurdish Peshmerga fighters rejected a warning from an Iraqi paramilitary force to withdraw from a strategic junction south of Kirkuk, which controls access to some of the region’s main oilfields, a Kurdish security official said on Sunday.

A Kurdish Peshmerga fighter is seen in the Southwest of Kirkuk, Iraq October 13, 2017. REUTERS/Ako Rasheed
Iran meanwhile shut its border crossings with Iraq’s Kurdistan in support of measures taken by the Iraqi government to isolate the Kurdish region, the Iraqi foreign ministry said.

SPONSORED

The border closing came as an Iranian military official arrived in Iraq’s Kurdistan for talks on the growing crisis between the Kurdish authorities and the Iraqi government following last month’s Kurdish independence referendum.

The Baghdad central government has taken a series of steps to isolate the autonomous Kurdish region since its vote for independence, including banning international flights.

Baghdad’s tough line, ruling out talks sought by the Kurds unless they renounce the breakaway move, is backed by neighbors Turkey and Iran - both with their own sizeable Kurdish minorities, and in Turkey’s case, a long-running Kurdish insurgency.

The top Kurdish leadership met on Sunday to discuss the crisis and rejected the Iraqi government’s demand that it cancels the outcome of the independence referendum as a precondition for talks to resolve the dispute.

The vote delivered an overwhelming ‘Yes’ for independence.


The Iraqi government in a statement accused the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) of bringing fighters from Turkey’s separatist Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) to Kirkuk, describing the move as a “declaration of war”.

In the statement, published after a meeting in Baghdad, chaired by Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi and attended by top military and security commanders, the government said it would seek to impose its authority over Kirkuk and other disputed areas.

A spokesman for KRG President Masoud Barzani, Vahal Ali, denied the Iraqi government claims about the PKK. “This is false, there are no PKK in Kirkuk, only Peshmerga,” he told Reuters, referring to KRG military forces.

The Kurdish leadership meeting, attended by Barzani, rejected the Iraqi “military threats” and pledged to defend Kurdish-held territory in case of an attack.

Iraqi paramilitary groups backing the Shi‘ite-led government in Baghdad had warned the Peshmerga to leave a position north of the Maktab Khalid junction by midnight Saturday, a KRG security official said.

The Kurdish position north of the junction controls the access to an important airbase and Bai Hassan, one of the region’s main oil fields, the KRG official said.

Ali al-Hussaini, a spokesman for the paramilitary groups known as Popular Mobilisation, did not give indications about their next move following the Kurds rejection of the warning . “We are waiting for new orders,” he told Reuters.

There were no clashes reported 21 hours after the deadline but tension remained high with both sides mobilized.

Iranian Major General Qassem Soleimani arrived on Saturday in the Kurdistan region to hold talks about the crisis. He is the commander of foreign operations for Iran’s elite Revolutionary Guards who provide training and guns to Popular Mobilisation


I support their breakaway as well ... though worry about an outlet to the sea.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-kurds-iraq-kirkuk/kurds-block-iraqi-forces-access-to-kirkuk-oil-fields-iran-shuts-border-crossings-idUSKBN1CK0BX

_________________
Go trumpf Go !!!
(will the resident return to being the President?)
(will the rainbow shack return to being the White House?)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:08 am 
Offline
Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:09 am
Posts: 1230
Location: On the beach
Reputation points: 4228
Speaking of the Brits... interestingly enough, as we now know, the EU does have a process for countries to leave their Union.

Everyone (including myself) loves to give them shit, but if nothing else, in this regard, they seem to at least have a mechanism. Something none of its members, nor the United States, can say.

Personally though, I refuse to endorse Catalan Independence. First, because I don't believe that is what the majority of the people want (and their election shows that to be true), and second, I don't want Civil War. This whole episode has a deja vu quality to it that, in concert with other things that have been going on here since the financial crash, seem to run parallel to Spain's 1936 Civil War.

As for the Kurds... they face a huge uphill struggle with just about everyone against them. They have proven themselves adept on the battlefield but like Syria's Civil War, these kinds of wars (the worst of all kinds of wars) are best to be watched from the sidelines.

We have enough problems and hopefully will not find ourselves involved in yet another war...

_________________
"In this present crisis, Government is not the solution to our problem; Government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan

"Because in America, we don't worship Government; we worship God." - Donald Trump


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:19 am 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:44 am
Posts: 10680
Reputation points: 11448
Lava wrote:
Speaking of the Brits... interestingly enough, as we now know, the EU does have a process for countries to leave their Union.


Though it does give the lie that the EU is nothing more than a bunch of treaties. Sovereign nations can renounce a treaty any time they want, because they are sovereign. There was an argument here that the UK should not invoke Article 50 but just declare itself out, for that reason - to underline British sovereignty.

Unfortunately with the EU the meaning of 'sovereignty' is intentionally murky.

Quote:
Personally though, I refuse to endorse Catalan Independence. First, because I don't believe that is what the majority of the people want (and their election shows that to be true), and second, I don't want Civil War. This whole episode has a deja vu quality to it that, in concert with other things that have been going on here since the financial crash, seem to run parallel to Spain's 1936 Civil War.


Ultimately the people are supposedly sovereign not the government, that's what it boils down to. With Catalonia they need a free and fair vote asap to end the issue one way or another. The level of actual support is unknown until that happens... seems to me a bad case of Spanish machismo on Rajoy's part.

The Spanish Civil War was animated, in part, by a desire for the unity of 'Holy Spain'. But that doesn't mean anything IMHO, any more than the indivisibility of the UK. If people want out then that's that.

I guess this is why Spain is totally a-ok with threatening the people of Gibraltar every so often. Because what the people of Gibraltar actually want simply doesn't matter to them, the only thing that matters is 'the unity of Spain', an essentially fascistic principle if you ask me. And yeah, I'm aware that's the same as "preserving the Union" was in 1862, but then Lincoln didn't sell his enterprise purely as that due to the Emancipation Proclamation. If he ONLY sold it as that maybe things would've turned out differently.

Quote:
As for the Kurds... they face a huge uphill struggle with just about everyone against them. They have proven themselves adept on the battlefield but like Syria's Civil War, these kinds of wars (the worst of all kinds of wars) are best to be watched from the sidelines.

We have enough problems and hopefully will not find ourselves involved in yet another war...


The Kurds are screwed. Nobody really likes them much, and their territory is geopolitically important. And the countries they want to carve a territory out of in the first place are not paragons of human rights, far from it, and are countries that in a realpolitik sense the major players have various reasons to suck up to.

Spain doesn't have the (quite valid) excuses of being a third world shit hole though.

_________________
“The gap in EU finances arising from the United Kingdom’s withdrawal and from the financing needs of new priorities need to be clearly acknowledged.” - Mario Monti


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 176 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 ... 18  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group