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 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:49 am 
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Lava wrote:
The Constitution explicitly states that all parties are indissoluble and agreed upon by 91% of the voting public. The Catalans conduct an illegal referendum in which you believe that approximately 17% of the Catalan population voting for independence is somehow valid?


It boggles my mind that an American, of all people, can argue this. George Washington didn't get permission from lawmakers in London to commit high treason. "illegal referendum". :roll: Legality is neither here nor there when it comes to self determination, though I suppose if you want to transmogrify into some sort of lawyer, there's the rights enshrined in the UN charter to which Spain is a signatory.

And given the reaction of the Spanish government it can hardly be described as 'free and fair', thanks to the actions of Madrid.

Either way surely the right thing to do is run a vote without jackbooted goons or bleating about how secession is illegal, and see how the chips fall. I don't see how that can be deemed unreasonable.

It's truly hilarious to me that the colony (boo, hiss) of Gibraltar has had repeated referenda on changing its current status to join with Spain and the response is always "No way, Jose". The citizens of Gibraltar apparently have far better ability to exercise their rights than those of Catalonia, yet Spain of all people does occasionally like to bleat about colonial relics and shite like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:59 am 
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jack t ripper wrote:
I think the answer is financial. The EU does not want an even weaker Spain


There's a quote from Wolfgang Schauble during the Greek crisis, something about how a vote cannot be allowed to change economics, something like that.

And elites wonder why the plebs are getting restless...! You can see the attitude of the elite with banks leaving Catalonia and the like, its just more of the same - I suspect not many banking CEOs are Catalan nationalists, and they are leveraging their influence. I'm sure this action will piss off the Catalans though, who I'm sure can work out what's going on.

Quote:
"Recreational bombing" :lol: :lol:


Can't claim originality there, I think Peter Hitchens (brother of Christopher the atheist ) came up with that one. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:01 pm 
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EUBanana wrote:
It boggles my mind that an American, of all people, can argue this. George Washington didn't get permission from lawmakers in London to commit high treason.


There is nothing to stop them from doing so. But don't feed me bullshit that the majority of the people living in Catalonia want independence... because they don't.

Therefore, the central government not only has the obligation to maintain Constitutional Law, but to protect the majority of people in Catalonia who don't want outright independence.

The folks there have been lied to. They have a minority group of left wing and nationalist radicals who wish to impose their rule on everyone in the province. That isn't democracy... that is fascism.

And that is why an American takes the stand he does.

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 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:09 pm 
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How can you know that the majority oppose if the gov't won't allow even a nonbinding referendum? Also, if the backers are wealthy separatists, doesn't that sort of mitigate against the accusation of "socialism?"

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 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:18 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
How can you know that the majority oppose if the gov't won't allow even a nonbinding referendum? Also, if the backers are wealthy separatists, doesn't that sort of mitigate against the accusation of "socialism?"


Exactly. After a free and fair referendum we will know. What's Madrid so afraid of
if this is a certainty?

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 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:01 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
How can you know that the majority oppose if the gov't won't allow even a nonbinding referendum?


Because they had one and they didn't receive a majority. Duh.

But they also said that the first referendum was going to made with only the use of private funding. Which was untrue. They used pubic money and public facilities to carry out the referendum. They broke the law. That is why they arrested Arthur Mas and banned him from politics for 2 years. Just as they lied about the nature of a split with Spain having no economic consequences for the province even up to last week before the referendum when the deputy premier, Oriol Junqueras repeated that lie once again... when in fact hundreds of businesses are leaving the province. Why do you think Puigdemont announced to Parliament (with his far left ally from CUP not in attendance), that based on the results of the *cough* referendum he was declaring independence but then suspends the result. How about... the province is going to collapse financially for one.

Look, there is only one way forward here. Now that folks understand the truth and not bullshit, they should hold a general election. If they can win the general election, then I don't give a shit what happens to Catalonia.

Spain has some of the toughest voter laws around. Voter ID, specific voting place, opposition parties in attendance to oversee the vote. None of that happened. Folks freely admitted they voted multiple times.

So... why is it you folks read "90% vote in favor of independence" and you don't question that result?

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 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:44 am 
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Lava wrote:
So... why is it you folks read "90% vote in favor of independence" and you don't question that result?


I'm not saying Catalonia should be independent right this second, I'm saying they should have a free and fair vote on the subject. No boycotts to undermine its authority, no legal wrangling, no denial of funds. This hasn't happened, including in 2014 apparently.

And if there really is a majority who like the status quo then we'll find out.

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 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:30 am 
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What was the exact percentage of Americans that wanted independence? Many served the Crown, even militarily fighting against the rebels and insurgents, trying to maintain order against the illegal actions taken by the terrorists that were spreading lies about the Crown, destroying public property and engaging in atrocious acts.

I can't imagine a world without United States - it would be a far more totalitarian and bleak existence.

If a local region wants independence, they can have it and then work with everyone else while having their own flag and local customs. Who does it hurt, really? For Spain, is it so terrible that a locality raises it's own taxes for it's own ends and none of it trickles to capital and that they have their own laws and customs? The horror.

As for "they're not ready", give 'em a chance. We've got independent nations the size of a city in Europe and they're doing just fine. In fact instead of condensating and centralizing power further into this totalitarian wannabe federation we should spread power more, with increasingly autonomous and smaller 'states'.

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 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:58 am 
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EUBanana wrote:
And if there really is a majority who like the status quo then we'll find out.


The last "legal" process were the elections in 2015. Pro-independence parties received 47% of the popular vote.

After the Catalan people have seen how they have been lied to and are watching their economy go down the toilet, they don't need a referendum. They need new elections.

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 Post subject: Re: Tensions Rise in Spain As Catalonia Referendum Nears
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:04 am 
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<<I can't imagine a world without United States - it would be a far more totalitarian and bleak existence.>>

If we had remained .. by now we would still be a member of the "common wealth" and nothing more ... a hat tip to ERII ... we probably would've fought in WWI earlier and maybe ended it earlier ... and would've fought in WWII earlier and maybe ended it earlier ...

But things didn't go that way, so here we are ... and since USA is separate, we should NOT be sitting in Korea or other places ... spending money and making trouble ... if trouble comes to us ... we should lash back with all available means, but we should not drive around the planet stirring the pot ...

We can SPEAK against those who do ... and we can refuse to trade with them ... that should make it clear we do not approve of bully behavior ...

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