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 Post subject: ANTIFA - Unreasonable?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:27 am 
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I am reminded of a famous quote by Nietzsche regarding those who seek monsters to destroy ought be careful not to become monsters themselves (or something to that effect).

So anyway, after learning the details from chijohnaok pertaining to the Portland "free speech" rally. I went to the ANTIFA/USA Face Book page in an attempt to gain some enlightenment on what their views are. I sent them the following message.

Quote:
As an American and someone who would like to live in peace and see others live in peace too, I’m a little concerned about some things that have happened recently. I’d really like to hear ANTIFA/USA’s feedback on this or at least feedback from some of your members who might be able to enlighten me further.

I read that there was a political rally in Portland yesterday (Sunday 6/4/17) in which members of ANTIFA and members of another rally clashed. I’ve seen the logos around that say, “punch fascists”. And I’m a little concerned as to what constitutes a “fascist” in the eyes of ANTIFA members? According to the FB page of the other rally (https://www.facebook.com/PatriotPrayerUSA/), their rally was supposed to be about “free speech” and not about racial discrimination and other xenophobic things that Fascists are usually in favor of. Did they deliberately take measures to exclude blacks and other minorities from participating with them? Or what was the rationale behind organizing and/or participating in a counter rally which allegedly resulted in bricks and things being thrown at police by ANTIFA members?

It really sounds to me like ANTIFA may perhaps be either misguided in this instance or else intolerant of political diversity. But I’d really like to see more open and honest debate about it between members of ANTIFA and those who are curious about why you do what you do. I am posting this here with the hopes that it will be approved on your page and that ANTIFA members will respond. If not, it would be greatly appreciated if you or someone could reference an Internet page where such debate between your members and other Americans can correspond with each other in a civil and respectful manner.

Thank you very much.

Sincerely,

Gary Childress


After posting the message, I browsed down a little further among the articles already posted on the page. I came across one where a young girl professing to be of American Indian descent posted saying that she thought "right" would be all whites going back to our place of origin and leaving America to Native Americans.

So I decided to respond to the girl's response also.

Quote:
First a clarification: I do not belong to ANTIFA. I’m just posting here because I came across this page after reading some things that happened in the news recently (which I felt sort of alarmed about) and wanted to find out more about ANTIFA—the organization allegedly responsible for the events that alarmed me.

But I saw your post and feel a strong desire to comment.

We’ve all probably been born here (in the United States) against our personal wills. I don’t recall asking to be born in the US and with “white” skin. I suppose I “lucked out” in some respects. In other respects it seems that I am somehow the source of many world problems because of the color of my skin. I try not to be prejudiced against anyone with a different shade of skin. I’m mostly a pacifist and I believe in many “liberal” ideals such as liberty, toleration, equality of opportunity, fraternity et Al. I hope those are good things to believe in. Otherwise I’m not sure what else can be reasonably expected of me.

People all over the world are born into their situations as members of a society they did not necessarily choose to be born into. We grow up and we discover sometimes that our ancestors may have done something wrong to get us where we are or that someone else’s ancestors may have wronged ours. There’s not a whole lot that can be reasonably done to change that except to be more conscientious going forward and perhaps repair damages as best we are able. If it is expected that diaspora should all go back to their places of origin before they kicked someone else off their land, then almost everyone on Earth would be returning somewhere, depending upon what arbitrary point in history we decide to draw a line at.


This seems entirely unreasonable to me. If you believe that justice can only be served by something like that then I have a feeling you’ll probably remain disappointed and disaffected for eternity. Being unsatisfied with the way things are can make a person profoundly unhappy. When a person becomes profoundly unhappy they may either withdraw into themselves and slowly whither or they may become angry and lash out. Neither of those two outcomes is good for anyone.


Therefore, I would like to suggest lowering your expectations of what would make things “right”. It would probably make you happier and by extension everyone you affect around you happier as well.


But I welcome your feedback. Maybe I’ve got it all wrong in my comments above.


To my delight the girl responded that she was being ironic and that she loved my post because the point of her post was that ANTIFA was being unreasonable. She reciprocated with many of the ideas I posted in my reply to express she felt the same way. So I'm thinking what a nice thing to happen. Two people who might otherwise be at odds finding a point of mutual understanding and belief.

So I go back to the ANTIFA page a little later and find that her posts and my posts are no longer on the article and there's no longer a "comment" button on the page for me to make any comments. I'm wondering if the page admin blocked me or what?

Seriously, is anyone that depraved of common sense that they would block out any attempt to communicate with them other than to simply applaud everything they do unconditionally? I am stunned. I would have thought ANTIFA would be a little more about finding commonality instead of perpetuating difference and animosity. :?

Apologies to ANTIFA for my negative feedback of how I was treated, but I believe you have earned it fairly.

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 Post subject: Re: ANTIFA - Unreasonable?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:40 am 
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I'm a "liberal" but from this I believe I may have learned something important about ANTIFA.

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 Post subject: Re: ANTIFA - Unreasonable?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:05 am 
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Gary,

The "native american" girl wasn't ANTIFA. She/he was quite obviously someone trolling them, even going so far as to practically tell you so. As you mentioned, here:

Quote:
To my delight the girl responded that she was being ironic and that she loved my post because the point of her post was that ANTIFA was being unreasonable.


The "Free Speech" side is all over the net, trolling cults like ANTIFA with irony and subtle mockery of their many double standards.



I say "cult" because that's exactly what ANTIFA is.

They behave much like a cult. Have you read some of the testimonies of ex-Antifa members? You should. There was a specific one someone linked, here iirc, awhile back. About a kid who left home to join. Oh boy, was he in for a ride. Including being prevented from leaving, and being reported to the police when he did. He wasn't the only example either.


I also hope you weren't attempting to apologize for the color of your skin. I really hope you haven't been so programmed as to hate yourself like that, Gary, simply because some people have been telling you to over your lifetime. Talk about programming... :?

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 Post subject: Re: ANTIFA - Unreasonable?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:26 am 
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NefariousKoel wrote:
Gary,

The "native american" girl wasn't ANTIFA. She/he was quite obviously someone trolling them, even going so far as to practically tell you so. As you mentioned, here:

Quote:
To my delight the girl responded that she was being ironic and that she loved my post because the point of her post was that ANTIFA was being unreasonable.


The "Free Speech" side is all over the net, trolling cults like ANTIFA with irony and subtle mockery of their many double standards.



I say "cult" because that's exactly what ANTIFA is.

They behave much like a cult. Have you read some of the testimonies of ex-Antifa members? You should. There was a specific one someone linked, here iirc, awhile back. About a kid who left home to join. Oh boy, was he in for a ride. Including being prevented from leaving, and being reported to the police when he did. He wasn't the only example either.


I also hope you weren't attempting to apologize for the color of your skin. I really hope you haven't been so programmed as to hate yourself like that, Gary, simply because some people have been telling you to over your lifetime. Talk about programming... :?


I don't think I'm a "self-hating" white. I was simply trying to establish civil dialogue. I thought my quoted examples would have been clear on that. :?

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 Post subject: Re: ANTIFA - Unreasonable?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:50 am 
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This reminds me of the story of the hard line communist I posted earlier from YLE news article - she was gay and visiting DDR and embarrassed everyone by asking about gay rights situation in DDR.

While I believe that what you were doing was what we all should be doing - bridging the gap of miscommunication and further division into hostile and increasingly militant and active camps, from my personal experiences I have found that it is nigh impossible feat to achieve.

The hard liners - on both sides - will refuse to talk to each other. They refuse even to comment on honest comments and hate dialogue. All they have is narrative and ideology, anything they say is so enriched with their ideology and it's narratives that they will never actually address anything you say to them - instead they will simply ignore you and try to turn you into a strawman so they can attack that strawman to score easy points while pretending that you don't exist.

For instance "ah, another Nazi" or "another white male" as a standard greeting, demonizing you and reducing you to a strawman. As such you are attributed with all sorts of baggage that doesn't in reality apply to you but then the 'leader' will just keep insisting you and derails you into endless series of parries against endless litany of assaults and accusations that only seek to silence you.

Then the followers of the hardliners who lean to them for their daily dose of raw undiluted ideology and narrative will in their attempts to please the hardliners and stay on their good side cheer these "great intellectual battles" and take them as examples of how just they are in their cause and how awful those that ask questions are - I mean, they're Nazi white males, after all and saying they aren't is the first proof.

As such I don't know how any dialogue can be established. If one group has a cause that aims to destroy another group or at least has completely unacceptable demands such as requiring the group to give away their property and relinquish their right to free speech - then it simply leads to conflict until either side is willing to cave in, either the side with demands lessens those demands or drops them or the targets of the assault instead of themselves radicalizing and consolidating on their position just give up.

Finally third option means increasing escalations of violence.

This is also exactly from the playbook known as Divide et Impera. Sow discontent, cut the other country in half, have them fight each other to the point where their national stability collapses, they can no longer sustain their military and either or both sides start looking for external support. Swoop in with one side, crush the others and claim the prize while also having knocked a rival off the board while he's focused with internal conflict.

No surprise this all starts from within the cultural and academic circles - which has always been seen as the weak point of a nation or a civilization against hostile psyops.

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 Post subject: Re: ANTIFA - Unreasonable?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:13 am 
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The left's little pet monsters are a feature not a bug Gary....

Don't worry, I'm certain they'll be nicer to you than those evil people who have the temerity to think the money they earn get this belongs to them first.


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 Post subject: Re: ANTIFA - Unreasonable?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:26 am 
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Well, yeah. They are extremists. They are the sort of people who would sign up to be the gulag guards, come the Revolution. People who define the Left as axiomatically cuddly need to read some history, or at least acknowledge that the far left are not your run of the mill, generally good hearted (but incorrect :lol: ) lefty.

Pretty much by definition they are the enemies of freedom, and would use force to crush dissenters. For the far left, historically that means stuff up to and including liquidating kulaks and shooting people who wear glasses, because they have convinced themselves of their own moral superiority and of the utter evil of actually entirely innocent people. The only difference between Nazis and scum like this is merely how they choose to classify humanity into the saints and the people who need to be fed into wood chippers to save the world. That's really the only difference observable to an outsider.

By opening dialogues you might save a few of the hangers on, Gary. And so you're doing good service. The real hard core of fanatics though won't be swayed, and won't be interested in anything you have to say, any more than than a Jew (or, indeed, anybody sane) could open up a dialogue with Reinhard Heydrich.

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 Post subject: Re: ANTIFA - Unreasonable?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:32 am 
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Humans are humans, and the ideologies behind these nutters is the same. Extremism left to its own devices tends to feed on itself, until it eventually dies because it nihilistically attacks itself (hence the old adage, 'the revolution devours it's children).

The property of individuals was also gone after by Red Guard members as well if considered to represent one of the Four Olds. Commonly religious texts and figures would be confiscated and burned. Other times items of historic importance would be left, but defaced, with examples such as Qin Dynasty scrolls having their writings partially removed and stone and wood carvings having the faces and words carved out of them. Re-education came alongside the destruction of previous culture and history, throughout the Cultural Revolution schools were a target of Red Guard groups to teach both the new ideas of the Cultural Revolution; as well as to point out what ideas represented the previous era idealizing the Four Olds. For example, one student, Mo Bo, described a variety of the Red Guards activities taken to teach the next generation what was no longer the norms.[18] This was done according to Bo with wall posters lining the walls of schools pointing out workers who undertook “bourgeois” lifestyles. These actions inspired other students across China to join the Red Guard as well. One of these very people, Rae Yang, described how these actions inspired students. Through authority figures, such as teachers, using their positions as a form of absolute command rather than as educators gave students a reason to believe Red Guard messages.[19] In Yang’s case it is exemplified through a teacher using a poorly phrased statement as an excuse to shame a student to legitimize the teachers own position.

Attacks on culture quickly descended into attacks on people. Ignoring guidelines in the 'Sixteen Articles' that stipulated that persuasion rather than force were to be used to bring about the Cultural Revolution, officials in positions of authority and perceived 'bourgeois elements' were denounced and suffered physical and psychological attacks.[12] On August 22, 1966, a central directive was issued to stop police intervention in Red Guard activities.[20] Those in the police force who defied this notice were labeled "counter-revolutionaries." Mao's praise for rebellion was effectively an endorsement for the actions of the Red Guards, which grew increasingly violent.[21]

Public security in China deteriorated rapidly as a result of central officials lifting restraints on violent behavior.[22] Xie Fuzhi, the national police chief, said it was "no big deal" if Red Guards were beating "bad people" to death.[23] The police relayed Xie's remarks to the Red Guards and they acted accordingly.[23] In the course of about two weeks, the violence left some one hundred teachers, school officials, and educated cadres dead in Beijing's western district alone. The number injured was "too large to be calculated."[22]



One will hope that, ultimately, the governments in the West will not be as accommodating of far left fanatics beating the crap out of 'dissidents' and 'wreckers' than the ChiComs were. But ultimately, the above is where this road leads if they are unchecked. The rule of law needs enforcement.

Doesn't mean they are thick, either. Commies understand politics and subversion all too well. In that sense, brainwashed commies are a lot scarier than brainwashed Islamists, like when you saw poor old Moldylocks making her propaganda videos to sucker a few more people in to the Cause.

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 Post subject: Re: ANTIFA - Unreasonable?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:35 am 
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EUBanana wrote:

One will hope that, ultimately, the governments in the West will not be as accommodating of far left fanatics beating the crap out of 'dissidents' and 'wreckers' than the ChiComs were. But ultimately, the above is where this road leads if they are unchecked. The rule of law needs enforcement.



The left has just about given up on the "rule of law" because they stand in awe that in Anglic nations that phrase means everyone is protected....

They are convincing themselves that their drive for "justice" transcends "law" and they are entitled to be the "decider" on an interpersonal level.

I am an ex-infantryman who has some pretty strong ideological beliefs of my own, the "rule of law" protects THEM from ME a lot more than the inverse....

they're gonna miss it when people on my side of the line decide to play "anything goes" in reverse.

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 Post subject: Re: ANTIFA - Unreasonable?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:40 am 
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Gary, for me the "truth" behind your post is not as exciting as the fact that you posted it ... I hope we all learn new things every day, I know I do!

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