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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:38 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:
I think there's a big difference between feeling pride with the military you belong to and thinking it is this fantastical otherwordly thing and superior to everyone else.


Absolutely. Don't take any of my comments as critical. The fact you guys HAVE a military is impressive in the first place, and the fact you have fought the Russkies to a standstill and have a clear vision to continue doing so for as long as they remain imperialistic assholes is all laudable. I wouldn't be half surprised if, on a pound-for-pound basis Finland's military is one of the best in the world.

All the Finnish military vids are impressively well-done and would seem to be pretty effective at what they are intended to do: convey to both friend and foe that you would be best off not to fuck with us, because it won't be a cake walk. That isn't saber rattling of hubris, it is just asserting one's confidence and agency.

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:55 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:
Kameolontti wrote:
I think there's a big difference between feeling pride with the military you belong to and thinking it is this fantastical otherwordly thing and superior to everyone else.


Absolutely. Don't take any of my comments as critical. The fact you guys HAVE a military is impressive in the first place, and the fact you have fought the Russkies to a standstill and have a clear vision to continue doing so for as long as they remain imperialistic assholes is all laudable. I wouldn't be half surprised if, on a pound-for-pound basis Finland's military is one of the best in the world.

All the Finnish military vids are impressively well-done and would seem to be pretty effective at what they are intended to do: convey to both friend and foe that you would be best off not to fuck with us, because it won't be a cake walk. That isn't saber rattling of hubris, it is just asserting one's confidence and agency.


The overall mentality is a rather fatalistic one. We cannot win a war, our country would be destroyed. We can't avoid having our country destroyed through defeatism and wishful thinking such as ignoring our defenses.

And we know that many would die in a conflict. We have to embrace this and show that we are ready to die, even if it appears to be pointless militarily for we cannot achieve a military victory.

So it is not about military goals or tactics. It's about strategy. We must assert that to call our 'bluff' will cost you. Once it's called, it's up to us to live up to our reputation of being willing to risk death.

In this hate of Russians and pure spite - Sisu - comes to play. Our greatest national virtue is relentless indifference that is fused with persistence.


In other words, we must convince everyone that we are fucking nuts. This is achieved by being nutty and embracing it.

Some of us can gain comfort from a faith in that by fighting back hard enough it can be possible to deter an invader to withdraw. To me it is a false hope as I find spite and hate to be my strongest allies.

All of this is of course theory and easy to say.

I know of a test that offers one specific insight to a man's character: point a loaded gun to his face and observe the reaction or the lack of it. Stare him in the eyes and see how he stares back at you and if he can.

I do not say that a person who is not afraid to die is superior. I do think that pointless death is the single most stupid thing an individual can do.

But what about an individual who is willing to die to make a point? Even that is not some sort of superiority you would want to build your civilization upon. It didn't help the Japanese, it didn't save the Third Reich. Soviets only suffered unnecessarily high casualties because of it, they were never going to lose the war even if they were less suicidal.

Afghanistan war, it turned to such grim business that not even the full might of Red Army and Soviet propaganda could cover it all up and keep it going.

It isn't something that you build a civilization upon. It is merely a means of paying back - out of spite. It doesn't really help you when you're called to do so - but most reasonable leaders of great powers will have heard of such places and peoples and most of them will find better victims, places where they can play their moves with the flow of river instead of trying to hold it back.

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:21 am 
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Oh harking back ~a month ago during the 3-carrier exercise near phat boi's play house ...

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:27 pm 
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Trigger-Happy, Autonomous, and Disobedient: Nordbat 2 and Mission Command in Bosnia


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To the surprise of many, even in Sweden, Nordbat 2 quickly established a reputation as one of the most trigger-happy UN units in Bosnia. The troops and officers from some of the least belligerent nations in the world turned out to be quite adept at both using force and playing the odds in a high-stakes political game. This article outlines how a well-entrenched culture of mission command enabled Nordbat 2 to take on completely new and unexpected situations with remarkable results. While this culture of mission command turned out to be a potent force multiplier and an exceptionally effective strategic asset, it also had another side: Nordbat 2 on multiple occasions utterly disregarded orders from its highest political authorities, to the frustration of the Swedish government.


https://thestrategybridge.org/the-bridge/2017/9/20/trigger-happy-autonomous-and-disobedient-nordbat-2-and-mission-command-in-bosnia

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:37 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
Quote:
Trigger-Happy, Autonomous, and Disobedient: Nordbat 2 and Mission Command in Bosnia


Quote:
To the surprise of many, even in Sweden, Nordbat 2 quickly established a reputation as one of the most trigger-happy UN units in Bosnia. The troops and officers from some of the least belligerent nations in the world turned out to be quite adept at both using force and playing the odds in a high-stakes political game. This article outlines how a well-entrenched culture of mission command enabled Nordbat 2 to take on completely new and unexpected situations with remarkable results. While this culture of mission command turned out to be a potent force multiplier and an exceptionally effective strategic asset, it also had another side: Nordbat 2 on multiple occasions utterly disregarded orders from its highest political authorities, to the frustration of the Swedish government.


https://thestrategybridge.org/the-bridge/2017/9/20/trigger-happy-autonomous-and-disobedient-nordbat-2-and-mission-command-in-bosnia

Fuck You, Denmark - Kampvognseskadron. :D



Kudos to Nordbat2 for their performance.

They were there as "peacekeepers".
IMHO, protecting the civilians should have been one of the primary goals of "peacekeeping".
And, based upon this article, it looks like Nordbat2 fulfilled its duties.
The Dutch on the other hand performed like pussies and ~8,000 people were ethnically cleansed at Srebrenica as a result.

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:10 pm 
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Quote:
To the surprise of many, even in Sweden, Nordbat 2 quickly established a reputation as one of the most trigger-happy UN units in Bosnia. The troops and officers from some of the least belligerent nations in the world turned out to be quite adept at both using force and playing the odds in a high-stakes political game. This article outlines how a well-entrenched culture of mission command enabled Nordbat 2 to take on completely new and unexpected situations with remarkable results. While this culture of mission command turned out to be a potent force multiplier and an exceptionally effective strategic asset, it also had another side: Nordbat 2 on multiple occasions utterly disregarded orders from its highest political authorities, to the frustration of the Swedish government.


https://thestrategybridge.org/the-bridge/2017/9/20/trigger-happy-autonomous-and-disobedient-nordbat-2-and-mission-command-in-bosnia


Thanks for posting - good read !!!

I was not aware :)

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:18 pm 
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The commander of BA01 (the first Bosnia Batallion), Ulf Henricsson, became somewhat legendary after this mission ("The Sheriff in Vares"). Through and through an armour officer that rubbed many the wrong way, esp. infantry officers because of his viewpoint that Swedish infantry basically stood no chance against an armoured/mech opponent - i.e. the Soviet/Russians.

Supposedly someone said: "He would make a fine general in wartime, but in peace he was too troublesome for the political/military leadership levels to be given general rank"...

He wrote a book about his experiences as the Bn commander which is rich in leadership advice and a sort of how to deal with clueless politicians. His battalion included a Danish tank company - the so called kampvognseskadron - fabled for it's participation in Operation Boellebank (roughly "Operation Punkspanking"), but for most of the initial phase this company was stuck in Serbia and not allowed to cross into Bosnia.


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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:45 pm 
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<<He would make a fine general in wartime, but in peace he was too troublesome for the political/military leadership levels to be given general rank>> I was fortunate enough to have a couple of commanders like that ... but during my time in the army most of the infantry and artillery leaders had combat experience ... that isn't always true ... seems like Henricsson was a rare "natural".

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:03 pm 
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Wow..what a great story.

Great example of local command. The problem is the Serbs and Croats were right...not in the sense that innocent children were guilty..but muslims encroaching into Europe are the historic disaster that they have always been since Charles Martel.

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:06 pm 
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Even so, I respect the professional dedication of the Colonel. The guy is a badass.

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