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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:59 am 
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Yes. In International Relations, if you are the good guy, it is cruel to be kind to a tyrant. Bomb the motherfuckers into the stone age; slaughter their people with unbridled savagery (while also offering at all times for a kind and generous alternative IF your demands for unconditional surrender are met). Act persistently to destroy their society, thus reducing its capacity to wage war and eventually excising its resistance to your just and generous offer of peace in exchange for total control of their society.

Then you guard them while you nurture them back to humanity; long enough, and generously enough that you can be sure they won't relapse.

Even if you are not sure you are the good guy, best to assume you are, because the other guy probably isn't either.

This is what the "Work of Civilization" looks like. It is unfortunate, but requisite because of human nature, i.e., in any given population of sufficient size one will always find criminals who do not wish to live in brotherhood but seek to impose tyranny. Occasionally, and especially when the free world powers have been complacent for a time, these tyrannical elements might gain control of enough people that they pose enough of a threat that the above described "Warfare" is warranted.

But trying to convince tyrants, or tyrannical ideologies or autocratic cultures to reform into civilization with generosity never seems to work . . . For the "hard cases" you've got to break them with brutality first before they are malleable enough for the generosity to work.

"We" have not broken anyone for a long time and it seems we are convinced we don't need to ever again.

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:26 am 
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One thing about Japanese culture that is very different is their cultural discipline. Perhaps no people on earth have this level of cultural discipline. When the emperor said "The War is Over" ... 99.999% of Japanese agreed.

The Germans were not quite so easy, but maybe 99% agreed the war was over. The evidence around them was overwhelming. Unlike Japan, Germany had been forcibly and completely overrun by enemies.

But yes, the other difference was the level of force was overwhelming and hence convincing. If we "fight" wars with the "tickling" strategy, the population will not be convinced to stop fighting. We've seen the evidence over and over and yet, the decision makers refuse to learn this lesson. The troops and people on both sides of the wars must suffer the consequences.

In the Army I was in, we were taught that our Russian enemies believed they should fight FAST and HARD and I absolutely agree with that. If you will fight at all, fight as FAST AND HARD as you can and get it over with. The troops and the people on both sides will be better off for it. Less people will die on both sides.

The leaders do not practice this idea to the detriment of all concerned.

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:34 am 
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The military goal is to defeat the enemy, to make the enemy stop fighting. Sometimes this is easy, sometimes it is hard, but that is the general military goal.

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:08 pm 
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No doubt that is lacking in the fight against the jihadis.

If they are importing brides and BMW's they aren't fighting very hard. Finally, they are closing in on Raqqa and Mosul but it took waaay too long.

The jihadist have no long range SAM's. We could have sent a dozen B-52's from Diego Garcia with a couple of thousand tons of 1950-era iron dumb bombs...so much for the prophesy

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:47 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:21 pm 
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Who cares. It's a massive subsidy to foreign economies. The US needs more CVNs the way that fish need Ipads.

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:36 am 
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jwilkerson wrote:
One thing about Japanese culture that is very different is their cultural discipline. Perhaps no people on earth have this level of cultural discipline. When the emperor said "The War is Over" ... 99.999% of Japanese agreed.

The Germans were not quite so easy, but maybe 99% agreed the war was over. The evidence around them was overwhelming. Unlike Japan, Germany had been forcibly and completely overrun by enemies.

But yes, the other difference was the level of force was overwhelming and hence convincing. If we "fight" wars with the "tickling" strategy, the population will not be convinced to stop fighting. We've seen the evidence over and over and yet, the decision makers refuse to learn this lesson. The troops and people on both sides of the wars must suffer the consequences.

In the Army I was in, we were taught that our Russian enemies believed they should fight FAST and HARD and I absolutely agree with that. If you will fight at all, fight as FAST AND HARD as you can and get it over with. The troops and the people on both sides will be better off for it. Less people will die on both sides.

The leaders do not practice this idea to the detriment of all concerned.


Well, what can you expect from a civilization that finds calling Ministry of War what it is and urges that it must be called something like Ministry of Love.

On another note, I do not know what the motives of US elites are when they sit around and the mics are off and they have a frank discussion about it. I have no idea what they're saying then.

Do they want to mold Middle East into a bunch of Muslim democracies? Does it even pay off? Is it even possible? Look at Turkey.

Or is it just a way to keep the region destabilized in an effort to keep them from gaining a balance and forming an all-Islamic Union that seeks to bring Islam to Mars? They certainly would have access to technology and the monetary resources to do so while also having a society of religious authority that with it's slave labor and public executions would make a Stalinist cry in envy.

Also, destabilizing the region has spilled well into destabilizing EU - which was a low hanging fruit and an obvious target of opportunity to the level where it was EU itself that painted itself red and then plunged itself on the sword before US could react. So you can't call it backstabbing when your buddy grabs your sword and plunges on it.

Knocking a potential future superpower unconscious for a while and making Sunni and Shia step up their upcoming Thirty Years' War is nice. Having EU import the problems of Middle East knocking this European slumbering technological and industrial giant also down and ready to tear itself apart over it's impossible and unrealistic ideals.


As long as US maintains it's ability to actually be an active actor on world stage they're actually doing really well. The problem is internal - if they lose their ability to act then this will create a power vacuum that will be exploited by Russians and Chinese. And US power is heavily based on having so many allies - if they were to ever lose their ability to look out for their allies then their empire would truly crumble. Hence why China and Russia spend such fortunes and all their skill and effort in undermining the popular support of US government and military, creating divisions where US needs unity.

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:06 pm 
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The US has no allies save, perhaps, for the UK. That is the flaw in your analysis. If we had allies that mattered, short term power vacuums created by the US absence would not be a problem because our "allies" would step in and fill the void. Why don't they step in? My theory is that they're not allies. They never have been allies, never intended to be allies, and probably never will be allies. But they are more than happy to have America subsidize their economies and stabilize their borders by projecting American force overseas.

The other possibility is that everyone except the USA thinks that having the Chinese or Russians move in to the voids is not a problem. If that is the case, the US should let the Chinese and Russians move in. If having Chinese and Russians in Iraq or Syria doesn't terribly bother Greece, Italy, Turkey, or Bulgaria ... nations closest to the threat, then it certainly can't be much of a threat to the United States.

And I have no respect for the concern about "American interests." As ever, if someone wants to drop that microphone, I will want to immediately know WHICH Americans benefit, how much money does it produce for those Americans, and how much gain do they get. And if there are Americans who are paying even ONE dollar to support that, they should be directly receiving more than one dollar in personal enrichment. I don't want to hear any bullshit about growth or GDP. Most Americans don't benefit from GDP growth, as the last 40 years of data have clearly shown.

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:23 pm 
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Quote:
... everyone except the USA thinks that having the Chinese or Russians move in to the voids is not a problem ...


Believe it or not, the Vietnamese do not think this way. They might be the only ones though.

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:41 pm 
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Quote:
Believe it or not, the Vietnamese do not think this way. They might be the only ones though.


I believe it. Maybe I should have phrased it differently. They don't care enough about it to try to do effay about it. When the PRC navy was gunning down Vietnamese on that submerged reef... ten years ago (? more or less).... the Vietnamese navy was a no-show. I have the sense that the Chinese get away with that because the only people who are willing to spend the money or political capital to occasionally challenge the Chinese are Americans.

That said, it looks like Japan is stepping up.

SE Asia though needs a international military collaborative force that responds to Chinese imperialism without requiring the US to provide the core of the force or be always the "first responder."

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