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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 1:41 pm 
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We (Finns and Americans) have been having joint exercises on ground every year now for the past few years.
Finally we can practice together in the open after 70+ years of more discreet but deep cooperation.

We've always been on the same side, essentially, just during Cold War the political leadership was infiltrated - they even put patriots into prison for preparing for Soviet offensive but they could never convince the population to stop hating the ryssä, the age old enemy in the east. They could never convince the population to truly become anti-American, the best they could do are these yuppies who have American everything from bikes to cars to computers and iPhones but who have an endless bag of sneering commentary.



Also, I keep trying to educate our friends in the 'Murica that no, you aren't paying for our defense. We may share with you intel that we've gathered over our 1,000+ kilometer border of Russian operations as well as information we gain from their Baltic Fleet's operations and all the Sigint stuff that I don't have a clearance for - simply swapping folders costs you guys nothing.

When it comes to to defense, we've got our defense right here. One of the biggest armies in Europe, one of the biggest artilleries in Europe. Overwhelmingly the most determined people in Europe.





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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:
We (Finns and Americans) have been having joint exercises on ground every year now for the past few years.
Finally we can practice together in the open after 70+ years of more discreet but deep cooperation.

We've always been on the same side, essentially, just during Cold War the political leadership was infiltrated - they even put patriots into prison for preparing for Soviet offensive but they could never convince the population to stop hating the ryssä, the age old enemy in the east. They could never convince the population to truly become anti-American, the best they could do are these yuppies who have American everything from bikes to cars to computers and iPhones but who have an endless bag of sneering commentary.



Also, I keep trying to educate our friends in the 'Murica that no, you aren't paying for our defense. We may share with you intel that we've gathered over our 1,000+ kilometer border of Russian operations as well as information we gain from their Baltic Fleet's operations and all the Sigint stuff that I don't have a clearance for - simply swapping folders costs you guys nothing.

When it comes to to defense, we've got our defense right here. One of the biggest armies in Europe, one of the biggest artilleries in Europe. Overwhelmingly the most determined people in Europe.





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Interesting.

Thanks for posting that.

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 2:25 pm 
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That map is quite interesting. The closer you are to Russia, the more likely you are to volunteer to fight for your country. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 2:28 pm 
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I would absolutely go if Uncle Sam called....of course, they would have to provide me with my blood pressure medicine and lipid-lowering drug....and I am supposed to have 6 oz of red wine every day for heart health..and omega 3 fatty acids to raise HDL.

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 2:34 pm 
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jack t ripper wrote:
That map is quite interesting. The closer you are to Russia, the more likely you are to volunteer to fight for your country. :lol:


Yup, the people in those countries still have a collective memory of what it was like to live under the thumb of the benevolent Russians.

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 4:56 pm 
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If they form a Geriatric Brigade I'll join up ... could be Commander of the Irish Mine Detector squad ... BOOM! ... There goes grandpa.

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 3:14 am 
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It's funny that it's the same countries where people are willing to defend their country which are the strongest opponents of Islamization of Europe - with the exception of Sweden.

In a total war scenario even older folks can serve - they can for instance work in rear positions such as logistics, home front guard duties, etc. where they will be relieving manpower from those tasks to where medicine etc. cannot be as readily guaranteed.

In countries that are neighboring Russia even the logistics and mobilization roles are actually high risk - during strategic attack phase we have to get the mobilization underway ASAP, that includes some people physically securing intersections and key locations, setting up check up points and opening up the massive armory vaults and equipping the reservists as they come in.

Needless to say Russian infiltrator units will attack these assets to slow down mobilization and will even try to seize and destroy armories. So folks that are tasked with the seemingly safe "mobilization" wartime duty may actually face situations where the armory vault is assaulted by a spetsnaz or equivalent infiltrator company.

Same for reservists - you're merely trying to make your way to nearest mobilization center to get your gear and you might run into a Russian roadblock while those that belong to rapid deployment and regional guards (people who have their own gear) will have to engage special forces even before war has been formally declared.

Asset protection is a big thing here. It begins before we know that we're under attack, officers, pilots, VIPs will be attacked in their homes. Police and military have plans for securing these personnel on a moment's notice.

We've changed legislation so that we can *force* mobilization of 30,000 reservists in less than 24 hours - before there was a possibility that reservists could call raincheck etc. but we've determined that this is no good - we might lose the entire war before it starts unless we can get those 6 additional brigades mobilized during day 0.

Also armored vehicles etc. are ready to be deployed immediately and rapid deployment units mean that we can deploy mechanized jäger units within 30 minutes as well as Leopard formations and other assets.

I still remember the rapid deployment drills. Russians would fly into our airspace, we'd get the scramble call and on a good day our armored jäger battalion was ready to embark and head out in 15 minutes, at most 30 minutes if we were outside barracks. Those scramble calls really gave us all a pause to think about what it would be like if there was an actual airborne division landing by Kymi river trying to secure a bridgehead there. Airborne armor and all.

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 6:25 am 
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That is a damned impressive definition of a reserve unit.

I don't think the IDF can mobilize that fast. What happens if there is a flash call and key members of a team don't arrive yet? Let's say an armored vehicle crew that has trained together. You can't just pull out with one guy missing?


Also, good point about the pilots. For a single engine aircraft they are absolutely irreplaceable. With a small air force the Russians could literally use intelligence assets to find the home addresses of the F-18 pilots and 3-4 Ivans pretending to be at a trade show could show up at the pilots house at dinnertime. Seems like, for morale purposes you would have to protect their families as well.

On any given day, how many military age Russians would be in Finland for any purposes? They could have small arms caches hiding in the Finnish woods and would not need to bring weapons across the border. Pretty creepy if you think about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 9:48 am 
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jack t ripper wrote:
That is a damned impressive definition of a reserve unit.

I don't think the IDF can mobilize that fast. What happens if there is a flash call and key members of a team don't arrive yet? Let's say an armored vehicle crew that has trained together. You can't just pull out with one guy missing?


Also, good point about the pilots. For a single engine aircraft they are absolutely irreplaceable. With a small air force the Russians could literally use intelligence assets to find the home addresses of the F-18 pilots and 3-4 Ivans pretending to be at a trade show could show up at the pilots house at dinnertime. Seems like, for morale purposes you would have to protect their families as well.

On any given day, how many military age Russians would be in Finland for any purposes? They could have small arms caches hiding in the Finnish woods and would not need to bring weapons across the border. Pretty creepy if you think about it.


Companies directly under Russian federal control own various warehouses. There's been a lot of talk in the recent years of how people are selling land and property near air fields and strategic locations to Russian milint dummy companies. There's been stuff of the Finnish archipelago where Russians have warehouses and so.

Supo, Finnish Security Intelligence Service keeps tight track of Russian assets and also cooperates heavily with other Western agencies. At one point Finnish signals intelligence wasn't even located in Finland - it's archives and key personnel were moved to Sweden because it was feared that they'd be compromised if they stayed in Finland, after the war Russians briefly gained control of Finnish state police until their influence was purged. Operation Stella Polaris, everything was in place to direct Finnish resistance from Sweden and complete occupation of Finland would not in any way jeopardize the Sigint activity where Finns had achieved remarkable successes in breaking Soviet codes under the guidance of a decryption genius.

Through Cold War Soviet agents actually were noted to visit the homes of Finnish pilots and other key personnel under various guises.


Note - it weren't reserve units that were activated in 30 minutes but current duty rapid deployment units. They are at all times a mix of fresh recruits and trained personnel, typically something like conscripts with 3 months of training led by fully trained NCOs and officers. The rapid deployment units aren't expected to crush a full airborne operation - instead they are solely to respond rapidly and challenge any landing or special operation and tie the enemy in place with heavy assault. Early during my training this especially gave me pause - to know that I was taking turns being 'shock troops' that will experience heavy casualties while charging what would likely be elite Russian units defending an urban area.

The idea is that they don't have time to spread out or dig in, their landing or activation site is immediately contested and while they're busy killing a mixed force of conscripts and professionals the heavy equipment such as Leopards and heavy artillery will come in place - assuming they have sufficient strength to repel the rapid deployment unit they will be squashed by combined assault by MBTs and heavy artillery.

To fully mobilize 300,000 reservists it can take a few weeks to get everything rolling. In recognition to this the reserves are divided to various tiers first of which are mobilized before hostilities begin.

The code word is 'unplanned/additional refresher training'. You know, "we're just calling ~10 brigades worth of guys for some additional practice, nothing to worry about, don't mind MBTs and artillery being dug in positions near your urban center, don't mind march columns and military police securing subway stations and airports. This is all just normal peace time training".

Essentially, Supo gets word or detects unusual activity on Russian side and it will set gears in motion.

Local forces are an interesting part in this mix - volunteers may join regional units that operate solely in their home region. They have few heavy weapons but they have local knowledge and they practice shooting and working with their unit. It is very difficult to operate in any area in Finland because there's always a local unit who's job it is to assist the operative forces and to be a pain in the ass for enemy forces trying to pull funny stuff. Even a single squad of angry and determined locals who are often equipped with custom rifles and using guerrilla tactics can be really annoying even for special forces, the locals have trained and thought in advance where the good ambush spots are, how to relocate and even how to set up chain of ambushes.

Even then we can expect that there will be additional delays during mobilization phase - if there's any real intent behind an invasion then they will deploy their special units and some of them will cause delays and even ambush reservist transports and so even if we'll manage to take them out as they're spotted and engaged. Still, some of their units may choose to engage in guerrilla tactics and Sissi units who also specialize in hunting special forces will be tied for some time to catch them.

This means that for some units not all parts of the unit will be arriving as fast but for main units like armored brigades and such there aren't as many issues - parts of the units are always manned, there are always plenty of troops to secure the rapid activation of the most critical heavy weapons. The biggest laggers will be various infantry brigades but I am under the impression that for instance armored units and AT, AA etc. will be top tier and likely mostly activated before hostilities begin. Not least because these units are vital to actually stop the enemy from just driving to capital along the highway but also because they can shatter any obstacles that are met while mobilizing the bulk of the forces.


For Israelis sake I hope they'll never need to worry about professionally trained elite infiltrator units acting within their country with the sole purpose of attacking their mobilization efforts. While it can be managed and dealt with it's not going to be pretty. Also, after such a dirty start the rest of the fighting isn't going to be pretty or merciful either. Something about losing a lot of civilians during initial assassination sprees, using IFVs to squash spetsnaz that are storming local police station etc.. There's going to be a shit ton of collateral damage and the whole tone of order of business is going to be one of no mercy, just awful and horrible.



PS.
During Continuation War the entire Finnish reserve was mobilized in one week.

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 Post subject: Re: Military Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 11:38 am 
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