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 Post subject: Re: What is trumpf up to ?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:28 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:
I skimmed through that and I have to say: the numbers presented in some detail do NOT seem to lead to the topline summary statement under which the article is being flown! Looks to me like YES, the U.S. IS spending a shitload on NATO, and everyone else is spending jack shit! :mrgreen:

Seems like a "thanks!" and "oh, here some favored nation trading status terms" would be the LEAST thing anyone of any political orientation in Europe would consider IF they actually wanted the U.S. to continue to expend as much tax payer money on NATO as they presently do!

I mean: either the U.S. IS protecting the rest of NATO, and "you" need us to do that, or we are not. The rational responses to threats of a major U.S. pullout are quite distinctive: in the first case, a rational response is to bring more to the table to try to keep the protection you presently receive. In the later case, a rational response is to say "Meh, we don't need ya."

Whingeing about how "Trump is vindictive" or "Trump is boorish" or "Trump is unstatesmanlike" are not compelling arguments!



;) :mrgreen:

You're right.

Judging by how much of a huff the EUros have been in, it appears they need the US and it's costly protection, and have been greatly benefiting from the status quo.

Otherwise there wouldn't be so much loud crowing.

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 Post subject: Re: What is trumpf up to ?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:53 pm 
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jwilkerson wrote:
IIRC Mexico is on the stick to fund the wall ...


Ah, true - but they are poor, are they not?

Maybe you'll have to build it yourself now and have the Mexicans pay in bits over the decades to come...


jwilkerson wrote:
...savings on would be NOTHING ... we are over spending...


If the NATO change doesn't go far enough why not just cut down the rest of the military budget...?


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 Post subject: Re: What is trumpf up to ?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:58 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
chijohnaok wrote:
In other words the US should continue spending this miniscule amount on European defense because the number is barely noticeable in the overall US Defense budget.


Well - maybe the US can find something better to spend that money on. Is it enough to fund Trump's wall...? ;)


The 2018 US Defense budget is about $700 billion.
5% of that would be $35 billion.

Estimates that I have seen reported for a cost of a wall have been in the area of $20-25 billion.
https://www.metro.us/president-trump/ho ... -wall-cost

So that 5% of the US Defense budget currently spent on European defense should be more than enough to build the wall.
The bonus of of that is that would largely be a one time cost (and then a much smaller amount annually on maintenance and upkeep), whereas that current 5% of the US Defense budget spent on European defense is a recurring expense, year after year after year.

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 Post subject: Re: What is trumpf up to ?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:10 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:
So that 5% of the US Defense budget currently spent on European defense should be more than enough to build the wall.


That must be like having the cake and eating it. No more crying Mexican kids giving Trump bad PR. What is he waiting for...?


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 Post subject: Re: What is trumpf up to ?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:22 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
chijohnaok wrote:
So that 5% of the US Defense budget currently spent on European defense should be more than enough to build the wall.


That must be like having the cake and eating it. No more crying Mexican kids giving Trump bad PR. What is he waiting for...?


I am all for "Make Mexico Great Again"....Mexico for Mexican citizens.

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 Post subject: Re: What is trumpf up to ?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:33 pm 
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Mexico has never been great. Everyone knows it.


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 Post subject: Re: What is trumpf up to ?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:01 pm 
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Maybe Trump is not all that unpredictable anymore:

Quote:
Where Trump’s intent has grown abundantly clear is the manner in which he is speaking to his supporters. At his rally in North Dakota two weeks ago, he said, “Sometimes our worst enemies are our so-called friends or allies, right?” At a subsequent rally in Montana last week, the president declared, “Our allies in many cases were worse than our enemies.” Trump understands the power of repetition, and it is notable to see this allies, they’re the worst, amirite formulation becoming a staple of his rhetoric.


Quote:
Compared to a week ago, it is now harder to imagine Trump will use the summit to leverage concessions that will make him appear like a strong negotiator, and much easier to imagine that he will use it to instigate a diplomatic crisis with NATO. By the time this is over, he may well have reoriented American foreign policy completely. It may seem bizarre that one man could do this, especially given that almost nobody in Trump’s administration or the ranks of the party’s political professionals share his goal of jettisoning NATO or closely courting Russia. Yet Trump has shown the ability to lead his base wherever he wants to take it. And where the base has gone, the party has eventually followed.


http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/07/trump-nato-summit-putin-russia-collusion.html

We'll know in a couple of days... ;)


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 Post subject: Re: What is trumpf up to ?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:11 pm 
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Quote:
In the last few months, the Trump administration has taken repeated concrete steps to damage European and international institutions and specific European governments.


Quote:
The idea that there can be a positive or neutral summit that strengthens the alliance, or somehow signals to Moscow that NATO is united, is ridiculous. It marks the kind of diplomatic thinking that Trump satirizes. What will be clear after the summit was already clear, if one wanted to see it, before: There is not a unified group of powerful countries ready to counter Russian geopolitical pressures on Europe and the Middle East. Countries on the Russian periphery cannot count on NATO support to chart future directions away from Moscow. North Africa and the Eastern Mediterranean won’t be getting infusions of stability from NATO, which also cannot offer a counterweight to Turkish president Recep Erdogan’s nationalist rhetoric.

Donald Trump didn’t do all of this alone — the rise of Moscow-sympathizing nationalist governments in Central Europe, and the U.K.’s self-inflicted Brexit wound also sapped NATO’s ability to offer what it claims to stand for. (The United Kingdom lost its foreign minister two days before Trump’s arrival, and its prime minister may face a vote of no confidence as he departs.) So did decades of European governments agreeing in word, but not in deed, with Washington’s calls for stronger shared defenses.


http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/07/trump-and-nato-even-the-best-case-scenario-is-grim.html


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 Post subject: Re: What is trumpf up to ?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:20 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
Mexico has never been great. Everyone knows it.


The folks at La Raza and MECha pushing for Aztlan would take issue with that...


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 Post subject: Re: What is trumpf up to ?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:54 pm 
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Quote:
... why not just cut down the rest of the military budget ...


There are a couple of rather insidious reasons for doing so, though I doubt I will see it happen in my lifetime.

01 - The "Kangs" have abused the CinC role for decades and thrown the USA forces around the globe engaging in activities not related to the defense of USA. This needs to stop. Congress is actually to blame. it is their job to provide oversight. They have not done it. Not even close, they have failed miserably. Magically removing the military from existence, would remove this toy from the Kangs and also help with a consequence of this abuse.

02 - The "People" probably, at least in part, due to confusion resulting from the behavior of the "Kangs" ... do not understand why we have a military. They do not understand the purpose. Remove the military from existence and events will eventually unfold, which will remind the people why the military exists, then the people will enthusiastically be in favor of recreating the military.

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