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 Post subject: Re: What R the chinks up to?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:36 am 
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doggie wrote:
Nah. We can forgive the Nazis and Japs. but those racists in the south are damned for all eternity. We rebuilt the Axis countries, but the South has never recovered from reconstruction.


LOL, that's a good one. Next can you tell us about how the moon landing was done on a stage in Hollywood.

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 Post subject: Re: What R the chinks up to?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:50 am 
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nelmsm wrote:
doggie wrote:
Nah. We can forgive the Nazis and Japs. but those racists in the south are damned for all eternity. We rebuilt the Axis countries, but the South has never recovered from reconstruction.


LOL, that's a good one. Next can you tell us about how the moon landing was done on a stage in Hollywood.


Had a colleague who was pure Pennsylvania feminazi. Probably had never driven through the south, and if she had ever even BEEN in the south it had been for brief two day trips to conferences at a large city.

One day, I mentioned how similar the rural areas of Western Mass looked to rural northeastern Alabama, the physiography, the roadways, the structures and the settlement patterns. Obviously not identical, but it really did strike me how similar the human geography of the areas was. I was thinking in terms of history, technology, social evolution, and how that all fits with geology and geography . . . can recall one of my cult anth profs--one of the old school guys who was a true scientist--he knew I was big into geology as an undergrad and he made this point in class one time about how one could observe a shockingly tight correlation between the boundary of the last glaciation in Illinois and the transition from one type of settlement/subistence pattern and another (cannot recall exactly what that transition was but on one side: one type of communities, on the other the other type) . . . That is just how I think. No concern for politics in my science whatsoever.

Her reaction?

She immediately bristled and expressed abhorrence at the thought that her beloved "north" be in anyway equated to the vile land of racism and ignorance, particularly the worst ignorant hinterlands.

In my experience, this is the standard mindset among people who grow up north of the Mason-Dixon and anywhere east of the Kentucky dome . . . probably the western edge of the Appalachias is a good approximate boundary. Ohioans, northern Indianans, Michigonians, etc. . . . they dont' seem to be so inherently bigoted and self-righteous.

So, while Doggies sentiment that "the south never recovered" is obviously impossible to reconcile with the reality of the boomtowns which are Raleigh-Durham, Atlanta, Birmingham, Nashville, Dallas, Tallahassee, etc., I think if you take it as a quickly jotted out sardonic quip, there is truth to it. In the minds of many northerners, the south can never and will never be reconciled.

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 Post subject: Re: What R the chinks up to?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:56 am 
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When doggie said never recovered from reconstruction, that could be a very loaded statement.

What did he mean by "reconstruction" ? :) What do you think of when you think of "reconstruction" ? What does that word mean to you, in the context of post ACW south?
And, given a definition ... what would a "recovery" look like?

I have an idea of what it means to me and will be happy to share ... but interested to see if anyone else has thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: What R the chinks up to?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:27 pm 
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jwilkerson wrote:
When doggie said never recovered from reconstruction, that could be a very loaded statement.

What did he mean by "reconstruction" ? :) What do you think of when you think of "reconstruction" ? What does that word mean to you, in the context of post ACW south?
And, given a definition ... what would a "recovery" look like?

I have an idea of what it means to me and will be happy to share ... but interested to see if anyone else has thoughts.


:P Doesn't it mean "carpet baggers" and snake oil politicians taking over!?

I love Dixie, there is something inherently preferable in the traditions. But the racism/slavery part was a cancer that had to be excised, so in that respect, I love the Yanks for performing the operation.

On the whole, I think "reconstruction" was not unreasonable, and by the 1950s any bias or intent to exploit or oppress on any systematic basis seems to have abated. The Eisenhower Interstate Highway system seems to benefit south just as much (if not more) than north ;)

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 Post subject: Re: What R the chinks up to?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:51 pm 
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I think one key aspect of "reconstruction" was having the black folks run the governments of the Southern States.

South Carolina was probably the most extreme example:

Quote:
All landowners in the state faced higher taxes and hundreds of thousands of acres of land were seized for non-payment. A large number of whites in the state never accepted the Reconstruction government as legitimate, and they began a ruthless (and effective) campaign to point out wrongdoings and discredit the Republican regime. The largely black state militia, in and of itself an alarming sight to most whites, was ineffective in quelling white insurgency. Tensions rose, and violence erupted throughout the state (Edgar 1998, 388 (quote), 394-404).

Republican victories across the country during the election of 1868 ushered in a dramatic shift in Reconstruction politics. The passage of the Reconstruction Acts, which allowed blacks to hold office for the first time, began what has been termed as Congressional Reconstruction or Radical Reconstruction. Congressional Republicans worked to enfranchise the black population but prohibited whites that had supported the Confederacy from voting, unless they took an oath of allegiance to the United States. The Reconstruction Acts required that the majority of registered voters in the state vote for or against a state constitutional convention and choose delegates. White Carolinians took the strategy of registering in large numbers and then voting no or boycotting the vote altogether. They preferred living under military rule as opposed to a state government composed largely of black leaders (Fraser 1989, 284; Zuczek 1996, 38-39).


http://teachingushistory.org/lessons/BeingThere.html

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 Post subject: Re: What R the chinks up to?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:01 pm 
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I view "reconstruction" as one of the swings between:

01 - Anti-bellum times, especially in the 1830s to 1860s period that saw the full emergence of the cotton plantations ...
02 - Post war - reconstruction times that saw an effort to induce black leadership into the Southern states and restrict white voting ...
03 - The collapse of reconstruction and slow emergence of the so called "Jim Crow" laws (1870-1900s) ...
04 - The sustaining of the JC laws period ... perhaps as far as up through the 1950s ...
05 - The full roll back of the JC laws in the 1960s
06 - The creation of the welfare state also 1960s
07 - The emergence of the "war on drugs" and mandated sentencing.
08 - The solidification of the "victim/cargo" culture we have now

So what could "recovery from reconstruction" mean?

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 Post subject: Re: What R the chinks up to?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:47 pm 
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Mmmm, I see your point now. Some details I had either never heard of or forgotten. I wonder if Sherman would be pleased that his march to the sea ultimately yielded permanent peace and relative prosperity, but at the cost of apparently permanent abominations like Hank Johnson?

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 Post subject: Re: What R the chinks up to?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:10 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:
jwilkerson wrote:
When doggie said never recovered from reconstruction, that could be a very loaded statement.

What did he mean by "reconstruction" ? :) What do you think of when you think of "reconstruction" ? What does that word mean to you, in the context of post ACW south?
And, given a definition ... what would a "recovery" look like?

I have an idea of what it means to me and will be happy to share ... but interested to see if anyone else has thoughts.


:P Doesn't it mean "carpet baggers" and snake oil politicians taking over!?

I love Dixie, there is something inherently preferable in the traditions. But the racism/slavery part was a cancer that had to be excised, so in that respect, I love the Yanks for performing the operation.

On the whole, I think "reconstruction" was not unreasonable, and by the 1950s any bias or intent to exploit or oppress on any systematic basis seems to have abated. The Eisenhower Interstate Highway system seems to benefit south just as much (if not more) than north ;)

My bold emphasis above.

I'm not sure that you can say that "by the 1950s any bias or intent to exploit or oppress on any systematic basis seems to have abated".

---The Brown vs Board of Education SCOTUS decision was not until 1954.
---Emmitt Till was lynched in August 1955.
---" in February 1960, in Greensboro, North Carolina, four young African-American college students entered a Woolworth store and sat down at the counter but were refused service. "
---The 16th Street Baptist Church bombing marked a turning point during the Civil Rights Era. On Sunday, September 15, 1963 with a stack of dynamite hidden on an outside staircase, Ku Klux Klansmen destroyed one side of the Birmingham church. The bomb exploded in proximity to twenty-six children who were preparing for choir practice in the basement assembly room. The explosion killed four black girls, Carole Robertson (14), Cynthia Wesley (14), Denise McNair (11) and Addie Mae Collins
---1964 saw the passage of the Civil Rights Act and 1965 saw passage of the Voting Rights Act
---It was not until the Loving v. Virginia case in 1967, the Supreme Court invalidated laws prohibiting interracial marriage in the U.S

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 Post subject: Re: What R the chinks up to?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:10 pm 
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I wasn't talking about racial bias. I was talking about bias on the part of self-righteous Yanks against Rebs!

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 Post subject: Re: What R the chinks up to?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:02 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:
I wasn't talking about racial bias. I was talking about bias on the part of self-righteous Yanks against Rebs!


My bad then.
I suppose I lept to the conclusion that you were referring to racial bias.

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