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 Post subject: Re: Dec 7
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:19 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
Many were the heroic deeds of Americans on that day. A perfect counterweight to Japanese perfidy.

One of Japan's oh-so-experienced aviators that according to most game designers were invulnerable in air to air combat met his end at the hands of a P-36:

Image


That's because the Americans cheated by using a modified ruleset for the World War II that makes them OP when in reality they were and are a nation of weaklings and playboys.

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 Post subject: Re: Dec 7
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:23 pm 
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Been rereading the Bloody Shambles series and am again convinced that most Allied land-based pilot losses from Dec 1941 through May 1942 were operational... by a factor of 3:1 I'd say, and that with simply decent logistics in their place even the RNAF boys an the UK/Commonwealth pilots in Singapore and Java would have eaten the Japanese pilots' lunch.

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 Post subject: Re: Dec 7
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:44 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:
mdiehl wrote:
Many were the heroic deeds of Americans on that day. A perfect counterweight to Japanese perfidy.

One of Japan's oh-so-experienced aviators that according to most game designers were invulnerable in air to air combat met his end at the hands of a P-36:


That's because the Americans cheated by using a modified ruleset for the World War II that makes them OP when in reality they were and are a nation of weaklings and playboys.


:mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Dec 7
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:05 pm 
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I wanted to +him for it but "spread the rep" was the reply.

I like that image because it's a beautiful metaphor. "Japanese torpedo plane going into the shredder. The rest of Japan to follow, same destination."

I have been given a few kits of Axis stuff. I only modify them, never build as intended. If it's an a.c. I build it in captured livery or wrecked. If it's an Axis ship, it's sinking. Now that I'm starting to light up kits with interior lights, all kinds of new possibilities are available. PzVIs to IJN CVs glowing from internal fires, etc. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Dec 7
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:24 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
Been rereading the Bloody Shambles series and am again convinced that most Allied land-based pilot losses from Dec 1941 through May 1942 were operational... by a factor of 3:1 I'd say, and that with simply decent logistics in their place even the RNAF boys an the UK/Commonwealth pilots in Singapore and Java would have eaten the Japanese pilots' lunch.


I liked Saburo Sakai's 'Samurai!'.

After being in more contact with Japanese traditions such as Kendo, I can fully appreciate the brainwashing and propaganda effort they were going through of.

They criticized Americans for being individualistic and ignoring the collective - yet they failed to see that when it comes to fighting Americans are anything *but* individuals, they are team players, all the best American sports are team games. In Japan all the best sports were and tend to be individual affairs.

Their old "die for your lord / no defense for the sake of defense" really sucks. As a friend of mine put it "Kenjutsu is really good when your enemy follows Kenjutsu conventions". This is how Japanese thought and fought. Air combat is about putting your life in danger, rushing in fearlessly at your foe with disregard for your own well being and trying to land a good hit - just like Kendo. Just get in and hit the other guy even if you get hit while doing so.

The problem is of course that they spend a decade training this way and they don't get any better - the attack has increased technical finesse but you still end up with a 'double hit' against a novice with only 3 months under his belt while losing your veteran. Not a good trade!

The thing that they loathed about Americans was the unwillingness to die for any cause. They got it wrong. Americans will fight to stay alive but they are putting their lives at danger anyway, they just don't sell them cheap - and they surrender when they cannot inflict casualties to the enemy.

So, what did the Japanese "elite" pilot aces do to become great at aerial combat? They would do all the Japanese things. Hang from a pole, fight in ring in the style that the loser has to stay and face more fresh opponents. Anything and everything that has nothing to do with actual art or skill of winning in battle and everything to do with what they view as 'warrior spirit'.

So they stripped all armor off, they gave away self sealing tanks and even radios to save weight. They would fight like the samurai of old.


I can best remember one of their early fights with Americans. The Japanese are so proud at the time, they are so strong and 'superior'. Saburo sees an excellent pilot from his squadron being approached by American Wildcat from behind. He has no radio, he wants to scream from the bottom of his lungs. Iirc he tries to fire his machine guns in the middle of this huge aerial battle to warn his friend.

He watches as his friend's - one of the original 'great ones' of the pre-war pilot training - is shredded to pieces by the six machine guns of an American Wildcat, unable to do a thing. And it isn't the last of it. One by one the pilots die. Saburo is only saved by the fact that he never mastered carrier landings.

They had high degree of wartime censorship but despite this he heard that home islands were hit - a rumor that the regime could not put down. Shocking, but they're winning the war anyway so it's no big deal.

Until he is eventually promoted to sufficient rank to see the maps and overall situation, which comes as a complete shock...




Also, I recommend everyone to take a look at Japanese plans for the big naval battles. If you ever need a case example for your strategy class on overly complicated plans, just look at the Japanese naval operations. You can best ensure that everything is fucked up when you have two dozen individual pieces, each involving a big risk and all of them depending on each other for the overall plan to succeed.

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 Post subject: Re: Dec 7
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:45 pm 
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Samurai is a strong book for getting the Japanese training and mindset. Problem for game designs is that too many designers think it reflects some kind of empirical reality. The Japanese may have thought at times that they were shooting down droves of early war fighters, but they were not. The USAAF, UK/Cwealth, RNEI, and USN unit records show rather small losses to combat, and most losses operationally. In actual combat, P36s, P40s, F4Fs, tended to get the better of A6Ms and Ki-43s, inflicting slightly favorable loss ratios, during the early war. Once the USAAF in particular began operating out of logistically well-supported bases, they usually ate the Japanese' lunch. USN CVs were basically fully built around logistics, and so USN fighters in particular had very favorable combat loss ratios from the outset. At no point in the war was the Zero very competitive ON THE WHOLE against the F4F.

As to armor, etc. The A6M and Ki-43 for example may have been suited to the Kendo style of Japanese training and dogma, but they had other advantages as well. Japanese engines were never, pound for pound, as good in re horsepower as western engines. So adding a bunch of weight (as the Japanese attempted to do in late model A6Ms such as the A6M-5 with a better engine and added armor tacked on all of 19 mph max airspeed while dropping its maneuverability into the range of your typical F4F-3, yet still insufficiently armored to stop .50cal -- although maybe nothing could be given enough armor to stop .50cal in a typical American AP-Incendiary-Tracer-Ball mix).

Working with a relatively inferior engine meant weight saving was a virtue. Weight saving in turn meant less use of strategic materials (albeit, at a much greater cost in loss pilots). But it also added GREAT fuel economy and long range. It was, in particular, LONG RANGE that gave the Zero the "early war advantage" that talentless Axis Fanbois crave to see replicated in games. Long range meant that it could show up unexpected at places like Darwin, Singapore, Palembang, Batavia and Pearl Harbor and catch enemy interceptors on the ground, rather than in the air.

Without that long range and reduced weight, the Pearl Harbor attack probably fails, the Darwin raid fails, the UK/Cwealth and RNEI forces have more respite to maintain a.c. logistically and as a result the fight for the "southern resource area" would have lasted much longer, with greater attrition both on Japanese aviation, as well as men and ships.

An ideal WW2 consim would be based on a well informed knowledge of everything written after 1980.. most are not... some are based on material published no more recently than 1967. Such a consim would have a much greater factual grounding in logistics than any currently available.

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 Post subject: Re: Dec 7
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:56 pm 
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In remembering PH we can also remember that the Philippines forces were also attacked. One particularly interesting fellow burned two A6Ms while flying his Phillippine National Air Force Boeing P-26 "Peashooter."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jes%C3%BAs_A._Villamor

One of the lessons here that Matrix in particular massively failed to grasp is that training AT THE RIGHT THINGS is far more valuable for pilots than training at the WRONG THINGS or "combat experience" gleaned by the Japanese while fighting against relatively untrained Chinese CNAF pilots driving Polikarpovs. Matrix is all about EXP values, and all the Japanese EXP values are very high as compared with Allied EXP values, apropos of no reality anywhere. (Indeed, if EXP were the everything of air to air combat as their model presumes, one would think all of those BoB veterans flying Hurricanes and F2As in Burma and Singapore would have MUCH greater EXP ratings than IJN or IJAAF pilots... but they do not).

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 Post subject: Re: Dec 7
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:00 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:

After being in more contact with Japanese traditions such as Kendo, I can fully appreciate the brainwashing and propaganda effort they were going through of.


A couple days ago, I saw a (female?) in a comments section trying to lecture everyone about how Japan's militaristic expansion, beginning from the moment Admiral Perry pulled up, was all America's fault.

After initially offering a short reply about their brainwashing the person sent a level-headed, although uninformed, reply so I went back for a follow-up.

I first mentioned that I knew where the altered history he/she spouted was taught in few places.. namely Japan.. and proceeded with a quick rundown of exactly who was running the Japanese war machine from the Meiji Restoration onward. The Japanese.

Surprisingly, this person admitted that I was correct in my guess as to where they learned that history. Schooling in Japan. Although they then toned down the levels of know-it-all certainty, after realizing they were speaking to someone who actually knew history and could call bullshit on their narrative, that person still stuck with the "Japan expanded because 'Murica made them do it", and some "We had to join Colonialism Club" excuse. Despite both admitting that Japan had been in charge of their own destiny, and that they had moved to the US, gained citizenship, and enjoyed the people & being here.

Just shows that the early educational indoctrination really sticks, huh? ;) Almost reminds me of one I had with a Chicom about a decade ago - his brainwashing was about how "the ChiComs kicked the Japanese out of China by themselves, despite the ChiNationals helping the Japs, and damn my blasphemy" for implying the Nationals fought them too (and more so). At least the conversation with the dual Japanese/American was a civil one, which is rare in comments sections. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Dec 7
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:08 am 
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mdiehl wrote:
In remembering PH we can also remember that the Philippines forces were also attacked. One particularly interesting fellow burned two A6Ms while flying his Phillippine National Air Force Boeing P-26 "Peashooter."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jes%C3%BAs_A._Villamor

One of the lessons here that Matrix in particular massively failed to grasp is that training AT THE RIGHT THINGS is far more valuable for pilots than training at the WRONG THINGS or "combat experience" gleaned by the Japanese while fighting against relatively untrained Chinese CNAF pilots driving Polikarpovs. Matrix is all about EXP values, and all the Japanese EXP values are very high as compared with Allied EXP values, apropos of no reality anywhere. (Indeed, if EXP were the everything of air to air combat as their model presumes, one would think all of those BoB veterans flying Hurricanes and F2As in Burma and Singapore would have MUCH greater EXP ratings than IJN or IJAAF pilots... but they do not).


Quite so. As Saburo himself writes, they could have a squadron of 16 planes chasing two Chinese biplanes! All the experience and tricks they must have gleaned from all that.

"Huh, enemy, where? Oh, it's already over?"
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The Japanese pilot training wasn't in itself bad - it would have been great if they had been training light infantry that would be dropped behind enemy lines - special forces, paratroopers etc.

But finding the people who have the most potential for shooting down enemy aircraft in a dogfight? Not so much.

Just look at awkward aces like Marseille. They were about to kick him out of the air force for lack of discipline but his dad, a Prussian colonel, saved his sorry ass long enough that he got a grip of himself.. Until he was invited to Berlin, learned of the Final Solution and essentially went AWOL, hiding in Italy and they had to send Gestapo find and apprehend him...

I'm not apologizing for his sake. I'm pointing out that coming from a pilot family I know intimately what kind of people the fighter pilots are. The Japanese "if a nail sticks out you hammer it down" isn't ideal for cultivating the kind of culture that attracts all the best pilot potential. As much as disciplinarians hate it, you get more out of your pilot force by tolerating their quirks, cutting them some slack and admitting that they're a force on their own - leave them be, reprimand them when they strafe the commanding officer's tent but try to let them run a hen house and stay out of their way.

The idea is that even though they are really a pain in the ass for their superiors and everyone else, you want them to be that because it pays off when you let them at the enemy and they slaughter them in droves.

It's like having a nasty pitbull. It can be a lot of trouble but when the burglar comes in you'll be glad that you have him around.

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 Post subject: Re: Dec 7
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:48 am 
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It is often claimed that the American oil embargo of Japan pushed them into a corner. This is partly true, of course, as the embargo was designed to influence Japan's behavior...but they had a very simple exit that did not involve the eventual destruction of Japan.

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