maddogdrivethru.net

Open all night
It is currently Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:14 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 413 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 ... 42  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:54 pm 
Offline
Staff Sergeant

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:41 pm
Posts: 3366
Reputation points: 4670
Anthropoid wrote:
Over many years of diplomatic wrangling and a series of agreements/accords and treaties, by 1996 they had been completely nuclear disarmed and these concessions by Ukraine were gained in exchange for a variety of assurances from the U.S. if not other Western powers as well as Russia.


One important lesson of the Winter War 39-40 is; treaties can be broken. :twisted:


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:33 pm 
Offline
Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:09 am
Posts: 1559
Location: On the beach
Reputation points: 8027
Anthropoid wrote:
Well assuming that "Russia remains the 'real' threat" (which I won't argue _against_ but wouldn't so strongly argue _for_ either), I'd say that all of us in "the West" (and including everyone who is anywhere "on the periphery" of Russia) are PRESENTLY "mooching" off of Ukraine.


Actually, I believe it was the desire of Ukraine to join the EU and NATO which forced the Russians hand and the area that was annexed was heavily populated by Russian speaking peoples or Russians proper.

The Russians explicitly warned the West that it would not tolerant NATO on its front porch and you can believe that they were not about to give up the Crimea without a fight.

Image

Given that Russia has been invaded by Europeans twice in the last 200 and a bit years, can you really blame them for fearing a US backed military alliance directly on the border of Russia?

IMO... the real threat to peace in this area would be an aggressive Europe backed by the US.

Trump's mission to talk with Putin is an easy one. He will assure him that the US has no intention of either initiating or supporting NATO aggression against Russia.

_________________
"In this present crisis, Government is not the solution to our problem; Government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan

"Because in America, we don't worship Government; we worship God." - Donald Trump


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:34 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 pm
Posts: 20755
Location: LV-426
Reputation points: 14927
Ukraine has no legitimate beef with the USA. We have fwd deployed forces and still provide the Nuclear Umbrella. Ukraine *DOES* have a legitimate beef with the other NATO states. Especially those EU states that enable Russia by gas purchases.

_________________
"Fuck the king." - Sandor Clegane

"And the story was whatever was the song what it was." - Dire Straits


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:39 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 pm
Posts: 20755
Location: LV-426
Reputation points: 14927
It'd be the mother of all stupid ideas to invite Azerbaijan into NATO. How fuckin stupid does someone have to be to think putting the Caucasus oilfields under NATO control would not (CORRECTLY I might add) be seen as a massive provocation by Russia?

_________________
"Fuck the king." - Sandor Clegane

"And the story was whatever was the song what it was." - Dire Straits


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:48 am 
Offline
Staff Sergeant

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:41 pm
Posts: 3366
Reputation points: 4670
Lava wrote:
Anthropoid wrote:
IMO... the real threat to peace in this area would be an aggressive Europe backed by the US.



Seems unrealistic though - given that Russia has nukes, and spends plenty on the military while Europe hardly has any military forces and the US wants to get out of the region. :D


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:19 am 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 pm
Posts: 20755
Location: LV-426
Reputation points: 14927
Trumps instincts are good but he has no coherent plan. Walk away from the NATO summit blathering about success when nothing has changed. He should have walked away with a plan to close a bunch of US bases on the continent.

I'm not a big fan of anyone's virtue-signaling. Trump needs to get tough not talk tough.

_________________
"Fuck the king." - Sandor Clegane

"And the story was whatever was the song what it was." - Dire Straits


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:35 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:19 pm
Posts: 26995
Reputation points: 20000
Well, in fairness, we do STILL have a treaty obligation and you don't want to send the Russians the wrong message or we could get stuck in a shooting war. Don't forget some idiot signed up Latvia and Lithuania.

There isn't really any realistic possibility of a major land invasion of Germany but the Baltic states are another matter. I think Trump is handling it about right. Nag and threaten...give chiefly Germany a while to step up....if not...you push the eject button and THEN get the troops out.

_________________
I haven't figured out how to the block thingy works but if anyone alters my posts I will become really, really angry and throw monkey poop out of my cage.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:00 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 pm
Posts: 20755
Location: LV-426
Reputation points: 14927
Well, if we walk away now, today, then we don't get dragged into a war.

In any case, we SHOULD exit NATO. If not today then tomorrow. If not tomorrow then at least have the process almost completed by 2020.

_________________
"Fuck the king." - Sandor Clegane

"And the story was whatever was the song what it was." - Dire Straits


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:56 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:19 pm
Posts: 26995
Reputation points: 20000
I tried to look up what is the actual mechanism for a NATO withdrawal. I can't find any reference. Presumably, as this treaty has been around for a while...the US Senate has likely ratified the treaty like it says in the Constitution. :lol:

The question I have then is...can the President order a withdrawal from the treaty. I doubt it. He would have broad authority to order troop redeployments but I wonder about actually abrogating the treaty.

_________________
I haven't figured out how to the block thingy works but if anyone alters my posts I will become really, really angry and throw monkey poop out of my cage.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:03 pm 
Offline
Sergeant Major

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 pm
Posts: 20755
Location: LV-426
Reputation points: 14927
I don't claim it's easy. There are a shitload of freeloaders, many of them wealthy Americans, for whom fucking over the US middle class in defense of globally owned assets is the reason why the USA is in NATO. But the president could withdraw from a base, and force Congress to do a politically difficult thing - explain to the American lower and middle class why they must sacrifice to defend Europeans who won't sacrifice to defend themselves much less to defend Americans.

_________________
"Fuck the king." - Sandor Clegane

"And the story was whatever was the song what it was." - Dire Straits


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 413 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 ... 42  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group