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 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:18 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:
EUBanana wrote:

I'm sure if something actually happened all of Europe would come crying to Uncle Sam.

There's a thread on reddit about NATO right now where it seems that Europeans feel wholly entitled to Uncle Sam's protection while at the same time telling him to get fucked.

I see mdiehlios point. :lol:


Do you have a link to that?


https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comment ... rope_must/

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 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:25 pm 
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EUBanana wrote:
chijohnaok wrote:

Do you have a link to that?


https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comment ... rope_must/


:shock:

I see that you (or at least someone purporting to be "EUBanana") posted there.
Your words sound as if you were channeling MDiehl....or did he hijack your account? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:26 pm 
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EUBanana wrote:
I'm sure if something actually happened all of Europe would come crying to Uncle Sam.


Some would - not Putin's friends of course. ;)

The sad state of all European military forces makes it pointless to come crying to anybody else. But, I'm pretty sure all Euros would prefer to come crying to Uncle Obama rather then Uncle Trump...


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 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:29 pm 
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Actually, now I look at that page on a desktop and can see the flags, it seems the ones who are really pro-moocher are all Americans, not Europeans! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sore losers I guess.

chijohnaok wrote:
I see that you (or at least someone purporting to be "EUBanana") posted there.
Your words sound as if you were channeling MDiehl....or did he hijack your account? :lol:


Well, the UK is paying the amount as agreed. The rest are mooching from the UK as much as they are from the US then really, morally speaking.

Clearly Germany is going to be about as much use as a chocolate fireplace if the UK needs Germany to back them up in a war. Which is what mutual defence is all about.

And there's a good point to be made. Geopolitics has changed since the 1970s, and relative European power too now the Warsaw Pact is all in the West again. Peaceniks like the more hippy European nations mooching is annoying. Estonia takes Putin seriously, apparently Germany - or at least Merkel - DGAF though because that's the job of yanks and Brits. (And Estonians, apparently).

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 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:33 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:
It is strange though that Japan is completely not on that list...


Why is not Finland on the list? Kameolontti, eh? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:34 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
The sad state of all European military forces makes it pointless to come crying to anybody else. But, I'm pretty sure all Euros would prefer to come crying to Uncle Obama rather then Uncle Trump...


I'm sure Merkel cries herself to sleep every night knowing that there's one big bit of the West out there that doesn't do what she demands.

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 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:39 pm 
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EUBanana wrote:
...orders from the Weltreich.


...führe uns und wir folgen! Der neue Morgen wartet schon... :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:41 pm 
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For what its worth, I tossed my 2 cents in as well.

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 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:42 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:
:shock: I see that you (or at least someone purporting to be "EUBanana") posted there.
Your words sound as if you were channeling MDiehl....or did he hijack your account? :lol:


Kwisatz. Haderach. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: BREXIT!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:46 pm 
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Well assuming that "Russia remains the 'real' threat" (which I won't argue _against_ but wouldn't so strongly argue _for_ either), I'd say that all of us in "the West" (and including everyone who is anywhere "on the periphery" of Russia) are PRESENTLY "mooching" off of Ukraine.

Ukraine has been holding Russia at bay for four years now, and with precious little real help from anyone, including the U.S.

In truth, this was an EGREGIOUS breach of U.S. Treaty with Ukraine. Back in ~1993, Ukraine was like the 3rd largest nuclear power on Earth as they became the de facto owners of a large fraction of the nuclear arsenal of the former Soviet Union.

Over many years of diplomatic wrangling and a series of agreements/accords and treaties, by 1996 they had been completely nuclear disarmed and these concessions by Ukraine were gained in exchange for a variety of assurances from the U.S. if not other Western powers as well as Russia.

Standing idly by while Russia annexed Crimea, then prompted a pro-Russian Separatist movement in eastern Ukraine is almost certainly in de jure breach of some of those diplomatic obligations which either the U.S. or the U.K. or Russia made to Ukraine.

ADDIT: probably the most applicable diplomatic obligation the U.S. had to Ukraine (which it reaffirmed as recently as 2009) was the 1994 Budapest Memorandum
Quote:
1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances

To solidify security commitments to Ukraine, the United States, Russia, and the United Kingdom signed the December 5, 1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. A political agreement in accordance with the principles of the Helsinki Accords, the memorandum included security assurances against the threat or use of force against Ukraine’s territory or political independence. The countries promised to respect the sovereignty and existing borders of Ukraine. Parallel memorandums were signed for Belarus and Kazakhstan as well. In response, Ukraine officially acceded to the NPT as a non-nuclear weapon state on December 5, 1994. That move met the final condition for ratification of the START treaty, bringing the treaty into force for Ukraine


So . . . while we Yanks might well have a basis to whinge about Euros mooching off of US, the Ukrainians, who (apparently) presently keep a large portion of the Russian military apparatus tied up certainly has a strong basis to whinge about the U.S. mooching off of THEM!

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