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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:15 am 
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My grandfather was the captain of an amphibious landing force command ship. In an invasion, his ship would have provided AAA cover and command for one of the assault forces. Exactly the kind of meat that kamikazes would have liked to hit.

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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:10 pm 
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From the previous mentioned book Victory at Peleliu, p214 - near the end there were different opinions in the Jap leadership on how to end it:

"It is known that General Murai, who occupied the Japanese command cave with Colonel Nakagawa, but remained in the background, became alarmed at the deteriorating position of the Japanese. He disagreed with Colonel Nakagawa's stance to keep on defending the Pocket, and he requested permission from General Inoue to conduct a banzai charge against the airfield. Genaral Inoue sided with Colonel Nakagawa and denied Murai's request for this suicide attack. The Wildcats wanted a banzai charge, which they could easily defeat, ending the battle."

("Wildcats" is a nickname for army troops of the US 81st Inf Div)


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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:31 am 
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One aspect that seems to be forgotten is that Stalin promised to attack Japan 3 months after the defeat of Germany.
And he did,we had to get Japan to surrender quickly.We did not want to see a Japanese Poland,Romania,Hungary.


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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:14 pm 
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pamak wrote:
mdiehl wrote:
Your entire claim is based on one colloquialized sentence?

"Finis the jap" means the outcome is not in doubt. It does not mean that the Japanese would surrender.

.



You are wrong again!
This is one more argument among the dozens I presented in this thread. This is why this thread is so long. From statement from the highest in rank military leaders to the bombing survey to Truman himself, all evidence show the same picture. That by the time Truman ordered the dropping of the atomic bomb, there was an anticipation among the most prominent military and civilian American leaders that Japan would surrender pretty soon. The navy leaders believed that blockade would have brought Japan to its knees. Air force leaders believed that conventional bombing would have done the same while Arnold himself opposed the use of the atomic bomb. Ike wrote after the war that the bomb was unnecessary. Marshall and Stimson believed that the entrance of the Soviet Union into war could prove to be a heavy psychological blow to Japan's political and military leadership and supported this position in the summer of 1945 when the US leaders were talking about the necessity to continue asking for the support of the Soviet Union. This comes from Stimson's diaries, vol 51, 183 (19 June 45). In other words, we have multiple evidence from a wide variety of sources to make us believe that at the time it was well understood that the Soviet entrance into war could have been the final blow. Still, Truman did not even think of delaying the dropping of the bomb


My bold emphasis above.

I watched the following video:




and then flashed back to this topic/discussion, and these points:

Quote:
The navy leaders believed that blockade would have brought Japan to its knees. Air force leaders believed that conventional bombing would have done the same while Arnold himself opposed the use of the atomic bomb



The video presenter addresses some of Pamak's points.

Perhaps it is a shame that we will not see a rebuttal from him. ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:26 pm 
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Here is an additional article that sort of rains on the parade of those contending that the Japanese were about to surrender:

https://www.warbirdforum.com/dropbomb.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:36 pm 
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All of this has been reviewed by George Feiffer (Tennozan) and Richard Frank (Downfall).

Mere "hopeless condition with no prospects of winning the war" was not sufficient to get the Japanese to surrender. The condition of the Imperial Japanese armed forces were so goddamb bad that American B-29s were holding "pre bombardment" leaflet raids to TELL THE JAPANESE which cities were next on the target list; yet the Japanese did not surrender. American battleships and cruisers were bombarding coastal factories on HONSHU in broad daylight; yet the Japanese did not surrender. US SB2Ms were bombing industrial targets with high-precision dive bombing in broad daylight, in an effort to avoid blowing up civilians unnecessarily; yet the Japanese did not surrender. The civilian populace in major urban areas were starving already because inter-island ferries and most railroads had been destroyed; yet the Japanese did not surrender.

The Japanese theory was that they could keep fighting until the US decided to invade, then bleed the US to the negotiating table, or else horrify the US to the negotiating table by sending millions of spear-armed civilians to the front lines and forcing American tank crews and infantry to gun down women and children armed with sharp sticks.

The atomic bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary to drive home to the Japanese leadership that there was NO HOPE OF EVEN EXACTING A BLOOD PRICE FROM THE U.S. RANK AND FILE in order to gin up a special deal that would allow the Army chiefs and other war criminals escape prosecution.

The opportunity to kill 100K or even 10K more Americans was not going to be available. There would be no drawn out costly siege. There would be no further payments in American blood. The nukes proved it beyond the possibility of the military hard-liners to obfuscate Japan's circumstances and prospects.

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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:50 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
All of this has been reviewed by George Feiffer (Tennozan) and Richard Frank (Downfall).

Mere "hopeless condition with no prospects of winning the war" was not sufficient to get the Japanese to surrender. The condition of the Imperial Japanese armed forces were so goddamb bad that American B-29s were holding "pre bombardment" leaflet raids to TELL THE JAPANESE which cities were next on the target list; yet the Japanese did not surrender. American battleships and cruisers were bombarding coastal factories on HONSHU in broad daylight; yet the Japanese did not surrender. US SB2Ms were bombing industrial targets with high-precision dive bombing in broad daylight, in an effort to avoid blowing up civilians unnecessarily; yet the Japanese did not surrender. The civilian populace in major urban areas were starving already because inter-island ferries and most railroads had been destroyed; yet the Japanese did not surrender.

The Japanese theory was that they could keep fighting until the US decided to invade, then bleed the US to the negotiating table, or else horrify the US to the negotiating table by sending millions of spear-armed civilians to the front lines and forcing American tank crews and infantry to gun down women and children armed with sharp sticks.

The atomic bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary to drive home to the Japanese leadership that there was NO HOPE OF EVEN EXACTING A BLOOD PRICE FROM THE U.S. RANK AND FILE in order to gin up a special deal that would allow the Army chiefs and other war criminals escape prosecution.

The opportunity to kill 100K or even 10K more Americans was not going to be available. There would be no drawn out costly siege. There would be no further payments in American blood. The nukes proved it beyond the possibility of the military hard-liners to obfuscate Japan's circumstances and prospects.


That is a compelling way to put it.

Ironic isn't it, that the culture that harbored that insane bushido shit has subsequently become so poppy and kitsch!?

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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:51 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
All of this has been reviewed by George Feiffer (Tennozan) and Richard Frank (Downfall).

Mere "hopeless condition with no prospects of winning the war" was not sufficient to get the Japanese to surrender. The condition of the Imperial Japanese armed forces were so goddamb bad that American B-29s were holding "pre bombardment" leaflet raids to TELL THE JAPANESE which cities were next on the target list; yet the Japanese did not surrender. American battleships and cruisers were bombarding coastal factories on HONSHU in broad daylight; yet the Japanese did not surrender. US SB2Ms were bombing industrial targets with high-precision dive bombing in broad daylight, in an effort to avoid blowing up civilians unnecessarily; yet the Japanese did not surrender. The civilian populace in major urban areas were starving already because inter-island ferries and most railroads had been destroyed; yet the Japanese did not surrender.

The Japanese theory was that they could keep fighting until the US decided to invade, then bleed the US to the negotiating table, or else horrify the US to the negotiating table by sending millions of spear-armed civilians to the front lines and forcing American tank crews and infantry to gun down women and children armed with sharp sticks.

The atomic bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary to drive home to the Japanese leadership that there was NO HOPE OF EVEN EXACTING A BLOOD PRICE FROM THE U.S. RANK AND FILE in order to gin up a special deal that would allow the Army chiefs and other war criminals escape prosecution.

The opportunity to kill 100K or even 10K more Americans was not going to be available. There would be no drawn out costly siege. There would be no further payments in American blood. The nukes proved it beyond the possibility of the military hard-liners to obfuscate Japan's circumstances and prospects.


Right, the Warbirdforum link that I provided was to an article by Richard Frank.

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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:57 pm 
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Quote:
Ironic isn't it, that the culture that harbored that insane bushido shit has subsequently become so poppy and kitsch!?


Japanese Chipmonks !!! (Perfume)

Image

I attribute the US success at "liberalizing" (in the traditional sense) Japan after WWII, in part to the unusually strong "discipline" of the Japanese people ... at least in part ... the Emperor said "We will do this" ... and it got done. I wish it was so easy in Iraq or Afghanistan ...

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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:10 pm 
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Its almost like they came out better for having been defeated than WE did for having won!

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