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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:26 pm 
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pamak wrote:
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Who gives a shit about hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilian lives? Too bad there was no A bomb in 1942. If killing a million Japanese saved even one marine it was worth it...".



And I am saying that this was in essence the mentality Truman had when he made the decision to drop the bomb. I assume you will agree with me, right?



Uhh, no you were not saying, and no we are not agreeing. You have presented nothing but contrary comments vs facts. You have presented nothing but theory vs facts. You have presented nothing but your ignorance of historical context to your need to feel better about yourself. What a piece of work......

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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:59 am 
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pamak wrote:
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The Japanese government had numerous alternatives at their disposal:
--- they could have NOT started the war against the US
--- they could have asked for terms (real terms not the BS stuff they were communicating through the Russians) at many earlier stages in the war (after it was evident that their fleet was destroyed; after city upon city was being firebombed into ashes; after Okinawa was defeated; etc.).

Japan started a war that anyone with an ounce of sense could predict they could never win, and then refused to admit to themselves that they would be defeated. Adm. Yamamoto warned his superiors of this: "I can run wild for six months … after that, I have no expectation of success".

The Japanese government is responsible for the outcome.


The fact that Japan was responsible for starting the war, does not give moral justification for avoiding reasonable options which could save hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilian lives.


The United States (government's) responsibility was primarily in doing what was best for the USA and for its people. What was best for Japanese civilians was secondary.
Things that were in its best interest included:
---bringing about an end to the war
---doing so in a manner which would result in the least amount of American casualties and deaths
---doing so in a manner which would not lead to a repeat of the war again in the near future (ala WW2 in Europe being largely a repetition of WW1) (a negotiated peace under the terms that the Japanese rulers were wanting would have left Japan in a position where it was still a future threat to the US or a more immediate threat to its other neighbors).


Ending the war in a manner which kept Japanese deaths (including that of civilians) down was not a primary factor in consideration with how the war should end. Had it been they would not have firebombed dozens of cities made of paper and wood, instituted a naval blockade to prevent resources from reaching the Home Islands, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:35 am 
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pamak wrote:


And I am saying that this was in essence the mentality Truman had when he made the decision to drop the bomb. I assume you will agree with me, right?


That should have heen Truman's ONLY consideration. The Japanese brought destruction on themselves. The same policy should apply to the Muslims of today. Firebombing would be the best way to deal with them. Every muslim wedding should end in fire and devastation.

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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:14 am 
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Quote:
Ending the war in a manner which kept Japanese deaths (including that of civilians) down was not a primary factor in consideration with how the war should end. Had it been they would not have firebombed dozens of cities made of paper and wood, instituted a naval blockade to prevent resources from reaching the Home Islands, etc



I did not say that keeping Japanese civilian deaths down should have been a primary factor. I said that it was not a factor at all in influencing Truman's decision to drop the atomic bomb. That I why he gave a blank check to the military to drop it, even though there were reasonable expectations by him and other top American officials that the Soviet declaration of war could have been the last straw to break Japan's back at a time when the blockade and the conventional bombing were becoming almost insufferable . Yes, we will never learn if the Soviet declaration of war would have been enough to bring peace, but we know for sure that Truman did not delay his decision for a few days to see its consequences. This is a clear sign that keeping Japanese civilian deaths down was not a factor at all in Truman's mind. And THIS is what makes his action deeply immoral!

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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:30 am 
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Nope. that made his actions moral. Only a traitor would act otherwise.

Being deep fried and nuked was the best thing for the Japanese. Prior to 1945, they were stinking savages. Look how peaceable they are now. They wouldn't dream of flying airplanes into buildings.

A couple of nukes would go a long way toward civilizing Muslims. I would hope they take their sweet time surrendering.

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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:00 am 
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Doggie, you made yourself clear: Killing on purpose civilians can be a moral act.

In fact killing on purpose civilians because they have the same religion with terrorists who believe that it is moral to kill on purpose certain civilians makes a lot of sense! :lol:

and it becomes even more logical if you consider that the terrorists have killed more Muslim civilians than Christians or Jews :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:02 am 
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C_S wrote:
I'm saying their formed units didn't evaporate.

Throughout history, most units evaporate after taking 10-30% ( or so ) losses. Meaning the unit fell apart, every man for himself. Japanese died in their trenches. The only way to dislodge them was to kill them.

That's what I meant.


The Jap units sent against the Americans certainly melted away in the superior American firepower.

That they kept fighting nearly regardless of losses is true, but they were sometimes accommodating - going Banzai instead of staying in their trenches - and usually got butchered by the more competent American forces (unlike a German counterattack against the allies which stood a greater chance of achieving a local, if temporary, success).


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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:11 pm 
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"Not knowing the plans for the division, the Wildcats indeed feared that the next
operation would be the invasion of Japan. Many belived this would be their last fight;
that they would never see home again.
It is impossible to express the relief they felt on first hearing that Japan had offered to surrender."

B.C. Blair and J.P DeCioccio - Victory at Peleliu: The 81st Infantry Division's Pacific Campaign, p.248













Image

Bought this book a couple of weeks ago. Deals with the US Army Division that finished the battle for Peleliu. Good stuff, as most American military history tends to be. Nation of writers...


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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:36 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
"Not knowing the plans for the division, the Wildcats indeed feared that the next
operation would be the invasion of Japan. Many belived this would be their last fight;
that they would never see home again.
It is impossible to express the relief they felt on first hearing that Japan had offered to surrender."


B.C. Blair and J.P DeCioccio - Victory at Peleliu: The 81st Infantry Division's Pacific Campaign, p.248


Bought this book a couple of weeks ago. Deals with the US Army Division that finished the battle for Peleliu. Good stuff, as most American military history tends to be. Nation of writers...
Exactly how the families felt, I was 9 years old.

Could almost hear a giant sigh of relief.

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 Post subject: Re: Hiroshima
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:10 am 
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My mom's family already lost one son in Europe in a B-17 in December 1944....they appreciated the fact that the other son didn't have to die in Japan.

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