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 Post subject: If only Trump cut ties with the Repug Establishment
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:55 pm 
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John Bolton is a veteran of the G.W. Bush administration and a depraved human being. Literally, people are fleeing the hellholes of Columbia, Guatemala and Honduras, clawing at the border to get in (I don't want them here either but WTF are we supposed to do when "no" isn't an answer they understand) and he thinks Nicaragua, Cuba and Venezuela are the "troika of tyranny". Apparently Nicaragua, Cuba and Venezuela just need to be consumed in vicious drug cartel wars so that they can become "free market" miracles like Columbia, Guatemala and Honduras and then send refugees running in our direction? WTF is the matter with the people running our country??? :roll:

https://www.democracynow.org/2018/11/22 ... nt_caravan

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Last edited by Gary Childress on Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: If only Trump cut ties with the Repug Establishment
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:00 pm 
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Venezuela is NOT a tyranny?

Haven't kept up on the other two . . .

I don't know too much about John Bolton, but IMO claiming he is a "depraved human being" is a pretty extraordinary claim that warrants some extraordinary evidence.

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 Post subject: Re: If only Trump cut ties with the Repug Establishment
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:22 pm 
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The thing about Gary is he actually listens to counter arguments.......watch.

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 Post subject: Re: If only Trump cut ties with the Repug Establishment
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:27 pm 
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Those people who were fleeing from the "hellholes" of Central America were offered asylym, jobs, housing and assistance by Mexico....and last I heard only some 1,700 of the more than 10,000 or so in the caravan accepted Mexico's offer.

Quote:
Mexico has begun slowly admitting caravan members to ask for asylum: as of October 24, the Mexican government said it had processed 1,743 applications. But many have decided to stop waiting and swim across the river to enter without papers.

https://www.vox.com/2018/10/24/18010340 ... ras-mexico


This proves that to the majority of those in the caravan, they are not seeking a safe place to flee to.
They are economic migrants who want jobs, who want "Stuff".

Quote:
“I miss my PlayStation,” one caravan member told Linthicum. “I miss Buffalo Wild Wings.”


Quote:
In US law, there’s a firm distinction between “asylum seekers” (who are fleeing persecution because of their identity, usually from their governments) and “economic migrants” who are looking for a job.


Quote:
Others are technically “economic migrants,” but they’re not simply coming for a better job — they’re fleeing desperate poverty. And with Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) stepping up deportations of unauthorized immigrants since its inception in 2003, especially of Mexican and Central American men, many migrants who’ve been deported have every incentive to try again.


US law treats these groups of people very differently — deportees who reenter illegally, for example, are permanently barred from ever getting legal status in the US, while people who can claim a “credible fear” of persecution are allowed to stay and seek asylum.


When the Mexican government wasn't processing the asylum requests quickly enough, members of the caravan used force to successfully crash the Mexican border.



Several days ago members tried to do the same at the US border, but the Border Patrol and Ice were better prepared and more resolute and repelled the attempts to ilelgally crash the border. If these people claim a desire to come to the United States, get jobs and become peaceful, law abiding residents of the USA, contributing to the nation, they have an odd way of showing it.

MSNBC (of all people) showing how the caravan was trying to crash the US border:


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 Post subject: Re: If only Trump cut ties with the Repug Establishment
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:27 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:
Venezuela is NOT a tyranny?
Sure it's probably a tyranny. But what would you call El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras, then? Whatever you want to call it, it's apparently MUCH, MUCH worse.


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I don't know too much about John Bolton, but IMO claiming he is a "depraved human being" is a pretty extraordinary claim that warrants some extraordinary evidence.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37989338 Advocating for "pre-emptive attacks" is pretty depraved.

Read up on him and the ICC as well. He's an incredible hypocrite. He thinks rules only apply to other nations but not to us. That would be great if it weren't so blatantly hypocritical that the rest of the world is fast losing confidence in our ability to be "world leaders". So for example, we can hold war crimes trials against foreign nations which engage in terror but NOT when our own leaders are responsible for killing innocent people. I mean, laws and rules should apply to EVEYRONE equally, right? To use an example we can all probably identify with, each of us would love to think that if we murder someone, then we should be exempt from standing trial for it. However, if that were the case, civil society would break down around us if such exceptions were wide spread.

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Last edited by Gary Childress on Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: If only Trump cut ties with the Repug Establishment
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:40 pm 
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There will ALWAYS be some people in countries and regions that are worse off than some people in other countries and regions.

The United States cannot accept everyone that wants to come here.


In 2012 Sen. Marco Rubio said:
Quote:
During a Fox News interview on June 18, 2012, Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., discussed immigration and said that "a million people a year come into the U.S. legally. No other country even comes close to that figure."


Quote:
Using 2009 statistics, the only nation that came close to the U.S. in permanent immigrant inflows was Germany. That year, the U.S. had 1,130,800 permanent immigrants, compared to 606,314 for Germany. So the U.S. had numbers about twice as big. The third-place finisher, Spain, had 469,300.


Politifact ruled Rubio's statement as accurate:
https://www.politifact.com/florida/stat ... grants-ye/

And the USA has continued to accept more than 1million people legally every year:
2014----1,016,518
2015----1,051,031
2016----1,183,505
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrati ... #Ethnicity

That is the total for legal immigrants and does NOT include the additional people who are in the US illegally (either by coming across the border without permission, those who entered on temporary visas but the overstayed their visas, etc).

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 Post subject: Re: If only Trump cut ties with the Repug Establishment
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:24 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:
There will ALWAYS be some people in countries and regions that are worse off than some people in other countries and regions.

The United States cannot accept everyone that wants to come here.


In 2012 Sen. Marco Rubio said:
Quote:
During a Fox News interview on June 18, 2012, Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., discussed immigration and said that "a million people a year come into the U.S. legally. No other country even comes close to that figure."


Quote:
Using 2009 statistics, the only nation that came close to the U.S. in permanent immigrant inflows was Germany. That year, the U.S. had 1,130,800 permanent immigrants, compared to 606,314 for Germany. So the U.S. had numbers about twice as big. The third-place finisher, Spain, had 469,300.


Politifact ruled Rubio's statement as accurate:
https://www.politifact.com/florida/stat ... grants-ye/

And the USA has continued to accept more than 1million people legally every year:
2014----1,016,518
2015----1,051,031
2016----1,183,505
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrati ... #Ethnicity

That is the total for legal immigrants and does NOT include the additional people who are in the US illegally (either by coming across the border without permission, those who entered on temporary visas but the overstayed their visas, etc).


That's great, but like I say, Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua aren't producing "caravans" of fence jumpers right now. So I could care less about them. El Salvador (note correction, I had mistakenly said Columbia in OP), Honduras and Guatemala apparently are.

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 Post subject: Re: If only Trump cut ties with the Repug Establishment
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:35 pm 
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So, what are the supposed reasons for these "caravans" of Honduran and Guatemalan "asylum seekers" to flee their homelands?

I honestly have no idea what legitimate reasons they might have to seek asylum. What little I have perused suggested to me that it was likely a Soros-funded political initiative intended to place pressure on the Trump administration for its immigration regulation perspectives.

Here is my view in a nutshell: The world has ~7.5 billion of us on it, and the entire world is divided up into sovereign entities. No matter how much anyone might wish for something more idealistic or wondrous, THAT is the reality of Planet Earth, 1 December 2018.

Like it or not, we ALL have to obey the laws of the sovereigns whom we find ourselves to be residents/members, and moreover, we are ALSO behooved to obey those of every other sovereign.

Why was the Russia meddling in the 2016 Presidential election "bad?" You cannot really account for that without a foundation in sovereignty.

Someone enters my property without my permission and takes up residence, and making use of my property and resources, that is a breach of the law and they need to be prosecuted. Same thing applies at the level of nation states. Anyone enters ANY sovereign nation without its oversight and permission, they have engaged in criminal behavior and they get ZERO sympathy from me. Criminals need to be uniformly dealt with, through fair and transparent due process, and if found guilty, punished.

So with all of that said: why should I give a flying fuck about a gaggle of people who quite likely are being PAID by a Soros child company to engage in an act of international crime and political meddling?

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 Post subject: Re: If only Trump cut ties with the Repug Establishment
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:37 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:
I don't know too much about John Bolton, but IMO claiming he is a "depraved human being" is a pretty extraordinary claim that warrants some extraordinary evidence.



OK. Maybe "depraved' is an inordinately strong word. I'll downgrade it to Bolton is an idiot. He's going to get us all screwed if he has his way.

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 Post subject: Re: If only Trump cut ties with the Repug Establishment
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:39 pm 
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Between 2.3 million and 4 million people have fled Venezuela:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... 70af79573e

For the most part, they are not fleeing to the US.
They are however over running the borders of their immediate neighbors.

Maybe Chavez and Maduro have brainwashed their citizens about the US so badly that they do not seek to come here.
And if that is somehow true, then (perhaps for the first time) I will give them a "thank you".

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