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 Post subject: Re: Illegal Immigration--Euro style
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:59 am 
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... What will destroy the EU will be the problem of immigration, it seems ...


Or if not the Eeee Yew ... at least the actual YourUp ... that lies underneath ...

But then perhaps a "Dark Ages" every thousand years or so is a good thing ... clears out the bad blood ... that sort of thing ??

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 Post subject: Re: Illegal Immigration--Euro style
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:58 am 
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Mebbe. Depends on your long term goals. Colonization of the other planets in our system seems a worthy goal, along with colonization of the asteroid belt. IF we wanted to do that (and there is no evidence of any sort of long-term planning in the US federal gob't) then periodic massive bloodletting and economic collapse is counterproductive.

On the flip side, if you think a la "Thanos" that cutting the global population to 10% of present sounds like a great idea .... (it always does unless one is one of the "culled") then, well, let chaos reign.

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 Post subject: Re: Illegal Immigration--Euro style
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:18 pm 
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Oh my . . . "colonization of the other planets in our solar system" . . .*shudders*

I do literally shudder to contemplate the horrors of human child development in low-gravity, much less micro-gravity environments. I don't even think they have done the very initial experiments with animal models to even know what potential problems might exist, though the obvious issues are obvious enough.

Space stations and space vehicles with spinning parts to simulate some gravity might suffice for adults to go up there and live in relative comfort and health for longish periods. But even there, I suspect the scale of cost to benefit will not get to the point where sufficiently massive things are economical for a very long time, if ever. It has been awhile since I reviewed all the details of the O'Neill cylinder but I seem to recall that a cylinder in the ballpark of 10km diameter was necessary to produce a consistent simulation of 1 g on the inside (setting aside faster spin rates that would tend to produce disorientation and various logistical/maintenance issues). But then the O'Neill cylinder I believe requires TWO such revolving cylinders (one slightly larger and counter-rotating) or else the thing would be completely unmanageable at station-keeping. I think the length of the cylinder is optional, but to be economical it probably needs to be at least a kilometer or two. So a 2km long by 10 or 12 kilometer diameter cylinder spinning in space. 15,700,000,000,000 cubic meters? ISS is 916 cubit meters . . . so yeah, we have a ways to go to "colonize" anything other than parts of Earth.

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 Post subject: Re: Illegal Immigration--Euro style
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:47 pm 
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Anthropoid wrote:
Oh my . . . "colonization of the other planets in our solar system" . . .*shudders*

I do literally shudder to contemplate the horrors of human child development in low-gravity, much less micro-gravity environments. I don't even think they have done the very initial experiments with animal models to even know what potential problems might exist, though the obvious issues are obvious enough.

Space stations and space vehicles with spinning parts to simulate some gravity might suffice for adults to go up there and live in relative comfort and health for longish periods. But even there, I suspect the scale of cost to benefit will not get to the point where sufficiently massive things are economical for a very long time, if ever. It has been awhile since I reviewed all the details of the O'Neill cylinder but I seem to recall that a cylinder in the ballpark of 10km diameter was necessary to produce a consistent simulation of 1 g on the inside (setting aside faster spin rates that would tend to produce disorientation and various logistical/maintenance issues). But then the O'Neill cylinder I believe requires TWO such revolving cylinders (one slightly larger and counter-rotating) or else the thing would be completely unmanageable at station-keeping. I think the length of the cylinder is optional, but to be economical it probably needs to be at least a kilometer or two. So a 2km long by 10 or 12 kilometer diameter cylinder spinning in space. 15,700,000,000,000 cubic meters? ISS is 916 cubit meters . . . so yeah, we have a ways to go to "colonize" anything other than parts of Earth.


I have read a number of sci-fi books on the subject of space colonization.
And more than once the issue of gravity's effect on long term explorers or those born and raised in space has been touched upon.

What I read generally follows these points:
1) long term exposure to no or extrememly low gravity will result in the loss of muscle mass and deterioation of bone structure. To the point that those who had been exposed to this for too long were unable to return to earth as they could not physically cope with the sudden shift to earth's gravity.
2) for those who were born in space in a no/low gravity environment, they would never be able to travel to earth, for the reason's mentioned above--their body could simply not cope with the gravity.
In one tv show (I can't remember which one it was) the effect on those born in space was so pronounced that the head (or near head) of the United Nations-equivanlent had a space colonist brought to earth for questioning and then simply had them exposed to the gravity as a means of torture to obtain information. It ultimately killed the guy.

Of course these were works for fiction--science fiction, so whether these effects described are realistic or not, I cannot say. No one has been born in space yet so we simply have no evidence to examine/rely on. I do however think that the muscle/bone mass impact on those who have been up in space for extended periods of time is something that has been documented and studied.

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 Post subject: Re: Illegal Immigration--Euro style
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:55 pm 
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It may well be that it is "nearly impossible" for a child to develop in a "healthy" manner in an environment that has a local gravity effect that is below some necessary threshold. In fact, I would say that it is almost certain that such a threshold exists. What the threshold is, and what the ill-health effects of growing up in a "low g" environment might be: too many possible pathologies to consider.

But a lot worse than "unable to return to earth." More like: physically unable to survive into adulthood is what I'm thinking . . .

The effects of space travel on adults who are at the peak of health for their age cohorts are bad enough. The effects on developing humans are horrific to consider. We'd need several years or more of mouse experiments to even have a baseline for what possible problems to consider.

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 Post subject: Re: Illegal Immigration--Euro style
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:49 am 
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Interesting NYT article. At least one can say that, unlike in the US, fears of resurgence of actual Fascism in Italy are plausible. You can tell from the headline the author is assuming a scolding tone but, really, what can be expected when a small Italian town is expected to assimilate an African invasion that has no interest in being assimilated.....and complete with drug violence and gangs. You don't want hypernationalism to flourish in the EU? That is a valid goal but maybe they should help Italy a bit more because the locals on the front lines are GOING to get angry and they don't have any recourse to some dickhead in Brussels making policies that make their lives difficult.

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By Jason Horowitz
July 7, 2018






362




MACERATA, Italy — At the end of his shooting rampage as the police closed in, Luca Traini climbed the steps of a Fascist-era monument, wrapped himself in an Italian flag and straightened his arm in a Fascist salute.

He had shot and wounded six African migrants — from Ghana, Mali and Nigeria — in this medieval city near the Adriatic Sea to avenge the dismemberment of a young Italian woman, allegedly by a Nigerian drug dealer. In his mind, he was a patriot.

But to Italian leaders, liberals and anti-fascist groups, Mr. Traini was a terrifying omen.

National elections were weeks away and the Feb. 3 shootings came during a hate-laced campaign marred by anti-migrant language, rising intolerance and hints of a Fascist revival.

At the height of the migrant crisis, Italy had been a progressive bastion and a staunch supporter of European unity. But now, the national mood had hardened. Mr. Traini’s rage crystallized, in grotesque form, the growing backlash against migrants and the rise of right-wing politics.


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/07/worl ... ion=Footer

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 Post subject: Re: Illegal Immigration--Euro style
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:57 am 
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This is a guaranteed failure. 2000 immigrants from 40 countries live in this one building in Macareta. It's the Italian version of Cabrini-Green.

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Cabrini-Green, Chitown. A festering sore of poverty, misery and crime.

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 Post subject: Re: Illegal Immigration--Euro style
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:50 pm 
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The thing that gets me, reading between the lines of that article, is that there seems to be no limit to the number of Italian plebs that the NYT is willing to sacrifice to make sure they remain 'open' and 'tolerant'. They just don't care, beyond the fact that they find it distasteful that for some reason the Italians aren't happy about being offered up as a sacrifice.

This is a policy failure. If Fascism does return it's due to the addled policies that preceded it. But there doesn't seem to be any contrition, hell, there doesn't even seem to be much in the way of recognition that these policies are disastrous. Complete tin ear.

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 Post subject: Re: Illegal Immigration--Euro style
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:31 am 
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Yes, that is my point. You want pizza you put pizza dough in the oven. You want resentment against immigration, you bring in a couple hundred thousand foreigners from a different culture who can't count to fucking "three" in Italian, have no marketable skills and have problems with violence because they are mostly young men with no moderating cultural and social braking influences. Just for fun, include some brainwashed muslims. Then, as the icing on the cake, stick 2000 of them from 40 countries in the same building.

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 Post subject: Re: Illegal Immigration--Euro style
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:40 am 
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