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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:11 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:
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Most places on Earth at this point in time, going out in public and proclaiming onself to be a proud Nazi are, at best regarded as inappropriate, ignorant and wrong (as well as gauche), and at worst criminal. Such is not the case with Islam yet. Once it is the same with Islam--or at least the unreformed current global forms of it which facilitate Islamist supremacist violence and hatred-- then all will be right with the world.


I don't think that we are anywhere close to that happening.....not because its isn't clearly becoming evident to be true (that Islam is an influence on violence and extremism).

Rather it will not happen because to do so, calling out an entire religion like that, would upset the disciples of multi-culteralism and you would be branded an Islamophobe and a racist (since many Muslims are brown and black).


Well . . . the zeitgeist of today is certainly not identical to the 1920 and I don't mean to suggest that. However, I would imagine that much the same could have been said about the rise of anti-Semitic pan-Germanism in the late 19th century, which then morphed into Naziism after WWI, i.e., that critique of these proto-fascist worldviews faced criticism of various sorts. I just call 'em like I see 'em.

Western, secular, liberal humanism (WSLH??): seems copacetic for humanity and the only worldview which has so far emerged which is arguably JUST and worthy of being 'incentivized' if not 'required' (arguably that is what the International Courts are all about after all).

Most other worldviews which are "at odds" with WSLH don't seem to concerning at this point; there are droves of them of myriad ilk and they will continue to do harm,but they don't have ~1.2 billion adherents and a amazing amount of solidarity/shared ethos. Islam DOES have a recruitment base for 1.2 from which to draw murderers, conspirators, and the various other forms of criminal which are portrayed as "martyrs" or "holy warriors." It also has the context of recent history to show us what it is capable of, and where it wants to go, i.e., a Western-free zone that straddles the whole of the Old World right across the equator. I think we can be confident that if such a Caliphate actually did approach such a size, it would never be content with only dominating that much of humanity and WWIV would seem inevitable.

So yeah, I do see Islam as being somewhat analogous to where the ideological roots of Naziism lay in say . . . 1890 . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:18 pm 
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I think Islam is doomed. I won't be around to see it - but it's made up so yeah, it'll go, sooner or later.

Anthropoid wrote:
Most places on Earth at this point in time, going out in public and proclaiming onself to be a proud Nazi are, at best regarded as inappropriate, ignorant and wrong (as well as gauche), and at worst criminal.


True, but the Nazi idea is not quite dead. I have a realtive, a second cousin, that is about my age - we grew up together. He works in a house building plant but his life revolves around hunting. Went to visit him a could of weeks ago when I was back in my home town. He told me he voted (sd) a couple of times. We grew up on anti-Nazi stuff, like Indiana Jones, the holocaust scenes from War and Rememberance etc but he also said that he had dropped this comment at work, in the lunch room:

"If Hitler had won the war there would have been some goddamn order in the world..."

That had sparked debate - but he maintained it was true even if it wasn't exaclty humane.


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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:24 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
I think Islam is doomed. I won't be around to see it - but it's made up so yeah, it'll go, sooner or later.

Anthropoid wrote:
Most places on Earth at this point in time, going out in public and proclaiming onself to be a proud Nazi are, at best regarded as inappropriate, ignorant and wrong (as well as gauche), and at worst criminal.


True, but the Nazi idea is not quite dead. I have a realtive, a second cousin, that is about my age - we grew up together. He works in a house building plant but his life revolves around hunting. Went to visit him a could of weeks ago when I was back in my home town. He told me he voted (sd) a couple of times. We grew up on anti-Nazi stuff, like Indiana Jones, the holocaust scenes from War and Rememberance etc but he also said that he had dropped this comment at work, in the lunch room:

"If Hitler had won the war there would have been some goddamn order in the world..."

That had sparked debate - but he maintained it was true even if it wasn't exaclty humane.


Quote:
That had sparked debate


And that is the proper way to address this sort of thing.
You reason with the person, show them facts for why they are wrong.
Use logic to demonstrate the error of their ways.

On the other hand you have people (Nero) who wants to start banning people's free speech and have people go out and punch "Nazis" ("Nazi" of course the new codeword for anyone that doesn't agree with you)

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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:34 pm 
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There will always be screwballs who could flip out and cause harm. No amount of genetic or social engineering will ever reduce the "screwball incidence" to zero.

But when you have 700 year old ethos, which are also the CORE of the political institutions of dozens of countries, which imposes actual LAWS and judicial systems onto hundreds of millions of people, and which has > one billion adherents . . . that is way too many screwballs.

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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:50 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:
Rough and tumble play is inappropriate. As are dominance behaviors and social hierarchies; thus, masculine 'fixed-action' patterns must--after ~500 million years of serving sexually-reproducing species well--be EXTINGUISHED in the Homo lineage. Swedenz are ahead of they time and one day all of the human cyber collective will gaze back in awe and wonder at the genius foresight of these Swede visionaries.


Sweden is at the forefront of War on Boys.

I'm so fucking glad we ain't like those idiots.

They keep being so afraid of Nazis that they've turned themselves to nothing more than a caricaturishly distorted Nazis, a negative image of Nazis where they believe that the exact opposite of everything Nazis believed in is the purest good as if it were a Black-White axis.

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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:19 am 
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chijohnaok wrote:
You reason with the person, show them facts for why they are wrong.


In theory, but nowadays there are always "alternative facts" some shmuck can pull out of a hat, so they will never feel that they are wrong. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:29 am 
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chijohnaok wrote:
...
On the other hand you have people (Nero) who wants to start banning people's free speech and have people go out and punch "Nazis" ("Nazi" of course the new codeword for anyone that doesn't agree with you)

:roll:

Fake news. :twisted:

PS. If you are referring to Alex Jones, perhaps having some libel laws in the US would be a good thing. The same with the funeral crashing "baptists". :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:45 am 
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wulfir wrote:
chijohnaok wrote:
You reason with the person, show them facts for why they are wrong.


In theory, but nowadays there are always "alternative facts" some shmuck can pull out of a hat, so they will never feel that they are wrong. :D


That may be. Some people are stubborn/obstinate.

However, is the solution to that to strip them of their right to free speech?

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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:23 pm 
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nero wrote:
chijohnaok wrote:
...
On the other hand you have people (Nero) who wants to start banning people's free speech and have people go out and punch "Nazis" ("Nazi" of course the new codeword for anyone that doesn't agree with you)

:roll:

Fake news. :twisted:

PS. If you are referring to Alex Jones, perhaps having some libel laws in the US would be a good thing. The same with the funeral crashing "baptists". :twisted:


The US does have libel laws:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation#United_States

The US has a long legal history (actually dating back to colonial times under Britain) around the issue of libel ( the case of John Peter Zenger in 1735 ). The US Supreme Court has also weighed in on what constitute libel ( New York Times Co. v. Sullivan ).

Furthermore, the US Supreme Court has ruled in a case involving Westborough Baptist Church ( Snyder v. Phelps ).
Quote:
Snyder v. Phelps, 562 U.S. 443 (2011),[1] is a landmark United States Supreme Court case where the Supreme Court ruled that speech on a matter of public concern, on a public street, cannot be the basis of liability for a tort of emotional distress, even in the circumstances that the speech is viewed or interpreted as "offensive" or "outrageous".

The case brought up the issue of whether or not the First Amendment protected public protestors at a funeral against claims of emotional distress, better known as tort liability. It involved a claim of intentional infliction of emotional distress, claimed by Albert Snyder, a gay man[2] whose son Matthew Snyder, a U.S. Marine, was killed during the Iraq War. The claim was made in response to the actions of the Phelps family as well as the Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) who were also present at the picketing of the funeral. The Court ruled in favor of Phelps in an 8-1 decision, determining that their speech related to a public issue was completely protected, and could not be prevented as it was on public property.


So, since the Supreme Court has already weighed in on the constitutional right (under the current US Constitution) of a group like Westborough Baptist to protest funerals on public property, there would be two alternatives to changing that:
A) at some point in the future the Supreme Court reverse itself (possible but not likely)
B) The relevant portion of the US Constitution (the 1st Amendment) is amended (very unlikely)

-----
There are of course differences between the libel laws in the US (generally see above);

in Finland:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation#Finland

and in Sweden:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation#Sweden

From Wikipedia: Defamation law in the United States is much less plaintiff-friendly than its counterparts in European and the Commonwealth countries.
In other words, the US leans towards the right of free speech more than many European countries do.
US laws and traditions around libel date back to before Finland (as a country) even existed. :)

The laws and courts in the United States are not here to protect you from having your feelings hurt.
Thicken your skin a little Nero. ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:47 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:
nero wrote:

chijohnaok wrote:

"On the other hand you have people (Nero) who wants to start banning people's free speech and have people go out and punch "Nazis" ("Nazi" of course the new codeword for anyone that doesn't agree with you)"

:roll:

Fake news. :twisted:

PS. If you are referring to Alex Jones, perhaps having some libel laws in the US would be a good thing. The same with the funeral crashing "baptists". :twisted:


The US does have libel laws:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation#United_States

The US has a long legal history (actually dating back to colonial times under Britain) around the issue of libel ( the case of John Peter Zenger in 1735 ). The US Supreme Court has also weighed in on what constitute libel ( New York Times Co. v. Sullivan ).

Furthermore, the US Supreme Court has ruled in a case involving Westborough Baptist Church ( Snyder v. Phelps ).
Quote:
Snyder v. Phelps, 562 U.S. 443 (2011),[1] is a landmark United States Supreme Court case where the Supreme Court ruled that speech on a matter of public concern, on a public street, cannot be the basis of liability for a tort of emotional distress, even in the circumstances that the speech is viewed or interpreted as "offensive" or "outrageous".

The case brought up the issue of whether or not the First Amendment protected public protestors at a funeral against claims of emotional distress, better known as tort liability. It involved a claim of intentional infliction of emotional distress, claimed by Albert Snyder, a gay man[2] whose son Matthew Snyder, a U.S. Marine, was killed during the Iraq War. The claim was made in response to the actions of the Phelps family as well as the Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) who were also present at the picketing of the funeral. The Court ruled in favor of Phelps in an 8-1 decision, determining that their speech related to a public issue was completely protected, and could not be prevented as it was on public property.


So, since the Supreme Court has already weighed in on the constitutional right (under the current US Constitution) of a group like Westborough Baptist to protest funerals on public property, there would be two alternatives to changing that:
A) at some point in the future the Supreme Court reverse itself (possible but not likely)
B) The relevant portion of the US Constitution (the 1st Amendment) is amended (very unlikely)

-----
There are of course differences between the libel laws in the US (generally see above);

in Finland:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation#Finland

and in Sweden:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation#Sweden

From Wikipedia: Defamation law in the United States is much less plaintiff-friendly than its counterparts in European and the Commonwealth countries.
In other words, the US leans towards the right of free speech more than many European countries do.
US laws and traditions around libel date back to before Finland (as a country) even existed. :)

The laws and courts in the United States are not here to protect you from having your feelings hurt.
Thicken your skin a little Nero. ;-)

If there are such laws, how can I sue you for defamation and slander? ;)

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Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


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