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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:41 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:
nero wrote:
...
Seems to something different, like the most recent sanctions, sanctions lite. :roll:

But perhaps there is a reason, and it is not diplomacy. :roll:

Waiting for Bolton, but is Bolton untouchable like Eliot Ness was. I hope Robert Mueller is.

And untouchable.


Sanctions are generally targeted, in today's sanctions on high ranking political leaders and Putin's close relatives; those in March includes those who were involved in the efforts around the 2016 elections.

Too "lite" for you? What do you want, a full embargo on all trade, business, educational and cultural interactions with the entire country of Russia???

If the sanctions are based on the Forbes list of who are the billionaires, there is a problem.

And if a relative of Putin is a billionaire is interesting.

So far Trump's actions have been reluctant, forced by the Congress.

Funny to say but I am waiting for Bolton to end the Kakistokratia. Silly me. :lol:

Bolton is not a Russian fan boy.

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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:00 am 
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wulfir wrote:
Kameolontti wrote:
If you were serious at all you'd at least consider the Finnish proposals for a defensive military alliance.


I support closer ties with Finland but I'm not blind to the problems.

There are historic experiences - mainly WWII - that speak against a binding Finnish-Swedish military alliance. The Swedish experience is that it is possible to manouver and stay outside of a conflict. The Finnish experience is that the position of small countries matters little when great powers clash, regardless of how much sympathy you might gain in the world there are no guarantees of help and a strong defence force under your own command gives you a certain amound of freedom of action.

To be truly effective the Finnish and Swedish defence forces would in many areas have to be basically merged. I don't see that happening. And there would I guess need to be a binding deal to go to war if the other is drawn in - but would Finland be interested to go to war if a conflict erupts in the Baltics - something which will very likely involve Sweden but maybe not Finland...? Is Sweden prepared to comitt itself if Russia needs to "borrow" Finnish Lappland for a while?


Sweden managed to only avoid staying out due to dumb luck.

If Winter War had dragged on Sweden might have faced an attempt to occupy it's mines supplying Nazis by UK and France. This intervention was feared by Stalin and contributed to peace talks progressing to keep the Allies from escalating into Scandinavia.

Similarly Finland being able to hold it's own meant that Sweden didn't have to deal with Soviets. Soviets themselves would have been more than willing to cut that ore from flowing to Nazis.

As for Nazis, of course they won't invade Sweden when Sweden is supplying them with massive amounts of ore willingly. Unlike Finland which only ever was a black hole into which they could dump resources needed elsewhere without contributing towards their war goals in any way.


Finland also does have some bad experiences of cooperation with Sweden. Like you said, Sweden wants to save the world on continent side, suddenly Finland is left without defense and with gates open for the Russians or perhaps Sweden is suddenly tied up by massive levels of civil disorder bordering rebellion in their own territory and needs it's troops to secure the cities filled with people who have been promised something by Russians.

It is hard to rely on help from someone who can't manage his own country, who can't even enter his own cities at will without some serious effort.

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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:09 am 
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chijohnaok wrote:
nero wrote:

How do you prove that the recent sanctions are not based on the information from the January article. Did the US have any sanctions between the article and the recent sanctions. :roll:

Your turn. ;)


YOUR contention is "These Trump Russia sanctions are curious, he is hurting many anti-Putin people."

Today's sanctions include Putin's own son-in-law; as well as high ranking officials in PUTIN's government.

Is it your position that Putin's son-in-law is "anti-Putin"?
Is it your position that Putin's secretary of the Russian Federation Security Council is anti-Putin?
Is it your position that Putin's minister of internal affairs and general police of the Russian Federation is anti-Putin?
Is it your position that Putin's aide is anti-Putin?

:roll:


It's like talking to a wall, isn't it? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:15 am 
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NefariousKoel wrote:
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It's like talking to a wall, isn't it? :lol:

Wall of the real world of facts. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:59 am 
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Kameolontti wrote:
Sweden managed to only avoid staying out due to dumb luck.


Nah, it took bending neutrality and basically betting on both horses. The luck part is really that the great powers had their hands full elsewhere when it counted. All of that is of no importance for this example. Sweden is no longer a neutral country - but too many people think it is and even idiots that should know better like Sven Hirdman act as if the neutrality is still in place.

Kameolontti wrote:
Finland also does have some bad...


Thus no binding military alliance between Sweden and Finland is possible. You'll have to join NATO.


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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:08 am 
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wulfir wrote:
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Thus no binding military alliance between Sweden and Finland is possible. You'll have to join NATO.

What happens is that Sweden joins and Finland will follow. Just like with the EU. ;)

But Sweden was believing in a free lunch, but then the reality hit, Crimea and Ukraine: TANSTAAFL.

We Finns are more realistic. By the law every man is a soldier, and now women can volunteer. And the old joke: jos vihollinen tulee muualta kuin idästa, vihollinen on vain koukannut. ;)

Hakkaa päälle!

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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:13 am 
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nero wrote:
What happens is that Sweden joins...


Probably not anytime soon. Too many red 68 generation anti-Americans who in their youth marched for the commies in Vietnam remain. NATO is - according to them - is a aux force for the evil American imperialist empire that encricle poor Pootin's Russia. "The neutrality served us well" - says Margon Wallström when a sober look at the evidence clearly show that the neutrality never was.


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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:55 pm 
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Sweden is sooner to join Arab League than NATO.

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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:33 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:
Sweden is sooner to join Arab League than NATO.



:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Welcome to Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:34 pm 
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I was gonna' take a course in Finnish but decided to scratch that idea and go for Arabic instead. Wallah!


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