Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

The rules: No spamming, no making a nuisance of yourself.

Moderators: chijohnaok, Kameolontti

Message
Author
User avatar
chijohnaok
Sergeant Major
Posts: 39032
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:50 pm
Location: West coast of the east coast
Contact:

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#21 Post by chijohnaok » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:40 am

LaPalice wrote:
jack t ripper wrote:I was trying to find out who was dropping supplies on Mt. Sinjar and who was supporting the Peshmerga against ISIS?
The French are ready to do it.
BAGHDAD (AP) — France's foreign minister said during a visit to Iraq on Sunday that Paris will provide "several tons" of aid to hundreds of thousands of internally displaced people and called upon leaders in Baghdad to unite against Sunni militants who have seized large parts of the country.

.../...
I will extend my thanks to the French when the aid actually gets to the people on the mountaintop (as opposed to just promising to do so).

I hope that more countries step up as well.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.
- misattributed to Alexis De Tocqueville

No representations made as to the accuracy of info in posted news articles or links

jack t ripper
Sergeant Major
Posts: 33404
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:19 pm

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#22 Post by jack t ripper » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:31 pm

Really, everyone will be dead by the time the Evian gets there. :lol:

Just looking through pictures of Yazidi refuges. Why aren't the men dead instead of driving around late model BMW's? Seems to me you fight back.
Strong supporter of global warming as I have invested in speculative vineyard properties around Nome

mdiehl
Sergeant Major
Posts: 22437
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:33 pm
Location: LV-426

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#23 Post by mdiehl » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:49 pm

"several tons" of aid to hundreds of thousands of internally
That's France for you. "Several tons" for hundreds of thousands. Tokenism at its usual French finest.
"Fuck the king." - Sandor Clegane
"And the story was whatever was the song what it was." - Dire Straits
'Our father, which art in heaven..' "May he fucking stay there." - Al Swearengen, Deadwood

jack t ripper
Sergeant Major
Posts: 33404
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:19 pm

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#24 Post by jack t ripper » Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:07 pm

This is what an airdrop looks like.

Massive "halal" palettes pouring out the back of a C-17. Halfway through the video. Damned impressive

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video ... s.cnn.html
Strong supporter of global warming as I have invested in speculative vineyard properties around Nome

KAding
Corporal
Posts: 893
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#25 Post by KAding » Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:03 pm

Again, on the one hand we hear cries for isolationism on this forum all this time. Yet, on the other the Europeans are ridiculed for not being interventionist enough, for not joining in the interventions enthusiastically enough...

KAding
Corporal
Posts: 893
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#26 Post by KAding » Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:05 pm

With regard to the French. I know the dislike (yes, hate even) is very profound. But recently I think the French have not shirked responsibility, not in Libya and not in Mali.

KAding
Corporal
Posts: 893
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#27 Post by KAding » Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:26 pm

mdiehl wrote:Airstrikes: USN and Iraqi Air Force using US supplied munitions.
Mt. Sinjar airdrops: USAF, RAF, and Iraqi Army. using US and UK supplied food and water.
Continental European assistance against ISIS to date: None.
Continental European support of minority refugees fleeing ISIS to date: None.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -dead.html
A fair criticism. But Europe is not a superpower like the US. Europe is not a single political entity, especially with regard to foreign and defense policy. It doesn't have the means to project power like the US does, nor does it have that ambition. If that makes us feckless and useless as an ally to you, so be it. As I see it: they simply practice what you always preach. That is a valid political choice of course, although I would personally prefer if European countries would try to gather a bit more "hard power" and thus spend more on their militaries.

CatLover7
Sergeant
Posts: 2989
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:48 pm

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#28 Post by CatLover7 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:28 pm

KAding wrote:Again, on the one hand we hear cries for isolationism on this forum all this time. Yet, on the other the Europeans are ridiculed for not being interventionist enough, for not joining in the interventions enthusiastically enough...
As far as I'm concerned Europe can intervene or not most anywhere it wants. Just don't complain about any US intervention. As far as self defense goes I recommend you be ready and able to stand alone. There's no ally the US government won't sell out these days.

It's looking like 2016 will feature a very hawkish Hillary Clinton. If the Republicans are smart enough to put a true isolationist up against her it will have some appeal to the normal Dem base. Such a Repub candidate will certainly resonate with those like me that feel Europe has played us for chumps for far too long.

Here's a quote from the recent Atlantic article that should concern Europeans:
When I asked her about the intense international focus on Gaza, she was quick to identify anti-Semitism as an important motivating factor in criticism of Israel. “It is striking … that you have more than 170,000 people dead in Syria. … You have Russia massing battalions—Russia, that actually annexed and is occupying part of a UN member-state—and I fear that it will do even more to prevent the incremental success of the Ukrainian government to take back its own territory, other than Crimea. More than 1,000 people have been killed in Ukraine on both sides, not counting the [Malaysia Airlines] plane, and yet we do see this enormous international reaction against Israel, and Israel’s right to defend itself, and the way Israel has to defend itself. This reaction is uncalled for and unfair.”

She went on, “You can’t ever discount anti-Semitism, especially with what’s going on in Europe today. There are more demonstrations against Israel by an exponential amount than there are against Russia seizing part of Ukraine and shooting down a civilian airliner. So there’s something else at work here than what you see on TV.” Clinton also blamed Hamas for “stage-managing” the conflict. “What you see is largely what Hamas invites and permits Western journalists to report on from Gaza. It’s the old PR problem that Israel has. Yes, there are substantive, deep levels of antagonism or anti-Semitism towards Israel, because it’s a powerful state, a really effective military. And Hamas paints itself as the defender of the rights of the Palestinians to have their own state. So the PR battle is one that is historically tilted against Israel.”

(from)
http://www.theatlantic.com/internationa ... _page=true
Given the choice between a story about Brussels being invaded or one with leaked details on the next iPhone most Americans will click the iPhone link. But there will be some solemn words from the next PotUS and #FreeBrussels will trend for a day or two on Twitter. We're already Isolationists. It's just not official yet.
"Trump 2020 baby!"

CatLover7
Sergeant
Posts: 2989
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:48 pm

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#29 Post by CatLover7 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:50 pm

chijohnaok wrote:
I will extend my thanks to the French when the aid actually gets to the people on the mountaintop (as opposed to just promising to do so).

I hope that more countries step up as well.
Me too. And it's not like the US has the moral high ground here. We encouraged the Kurds to revolt and then stood by and watched the Iraqis slaughter them. All because we (supposedly) didn't understand the dangers when we agreed to let the Iraqis use helicopters when hostilities ended in '91. "Good one! You got us on a technicality". Should have torn up the original agreement and given them another three days of Hellfire From Above. Then made them sign a new agreement without that loophole. Rinse and repeat as needed.

Even after we screwed over the Kurds they still loved us in '03. "Oops, sorry we blew up your convoy". "No worries, now go kick Saddam's ass". Compare that to any blue on blue attacks with our other allies.
"Trump 2020 baby!"

User avatar
chijohnaok
Sergeant Major
Posts: 39032
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:50 pm
Location: West coast of the east coast
Contact:

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#30 Post by chijohnaok » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:06 pm

jack t ripper wrote:This is what an airdrop looks like.

Massive "halal" palettes pouring out the back of a C-17. Halfway through the video. Damned impressive

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video ... s.cnn.html
That CNN video said that the UN is going to establish a "human corridor" to the people on the mountain.

I'm curious as to how they intend to do that.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.
- misattributed to Alexis De Tocqueville

No representations made as to the accuracy of info in posted news articles or links

Post Reply