Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

The rules: No spamming, no making a nuisance of yourself.

Moderators: chijohnaok, Kameolontti

Message
Author
nelmsm
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 4346
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:26 pm
Location: not the end of the world but you can see it from here

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1211 Post by nelmsm » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:57 pm

Would that mean they would allow overflight....finally
Texas, where we have the death penalty and aren't afraid to use it! Build the wall!!

User avatar
LaPalice
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 4521
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:42 am
Location: France

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1212 Post by LaPalice » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:53 pm

France seems to desire to enlarge its nuclear deterrence to the rest of Europe. And if you read the end of the article, you see that Germany would like to play a role in European deterrence.

In post-Brexit push, Macron calls for European nuclear arms control agenda
.../...
end of the article

Macron showed his intention to take on a post-Brexit nuclear role during his visit to Poland on Monday (2 February), where he said the updated French nuclear deterrence strategy would also “take into account the interests of other European countries”.

“I will focus on the doctrine (of French deterrence), but also on the procedures and modalities that I wish to propose on this topic to our partners in the coming months,” he said in Warsaw.

Meanwhile, Germany has recently also shown signs of willingness to get involved in issues regarding nuclear weapons.

On Monday, a senior member of Chancellor Angela Merkel’s CDU party pleaded for the EU to create its own nuclear deterrence capability.

Germany should “consider cooperation with France regarding nuclear weapons,” Johann Wadephul said in an interview with EURACTIV’S media partner Tagesspiegel, and “should be prepared to participate in the nuclear deterrent force with its own capabilities and means.”

So far, there has been no intention from the bloc to create a joint European nuclear deterrent.

User avatar
chijohnaok
Sergeant Major
Posts: 38213
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:50 pm
Location: West coast of the east coast
Contact:

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1213 Post by chijohnaok » Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:28 pm

LaPalice wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:53 pm
France seems to desire to enlarge its nuclear deterrence to the rest of Europe. And if you read the end of the article, you see that Germany would like to play a role in European deterrence.

In post-Brexit push, Macron calls for European nuclear arms control agenda
.../...
end of the article

Macron showed his intention to take on a post-Brexit nuclear role during his visit to Poland on Monday (2 February), where he said the updated French nuclear deterrence strategy would also “take into account the interests of other European countries”.

“I will focus on the doctrine (of French deterrence), but also on the procedures and modalities that I wish to propose on this topic to our partners in the coming months,” he said in Warsaw.

Meanwhile, Germany has recently also shown signs of willingness to get involved in issues regarding nuclear weapons.

On Monday, a senior member of Chancellor Angela Merkel’s CDU party pleaded for the EU to create its own nuclear deterrence capability.

Germany should “consider cooperation with France regarding nuclear weapons,” Johann Wadephul said in an interview with EURACTIV’S media partner Tagesspiegel, and “should be prepared to participate in the nuclear deterrent force with its own capabilities and means.”

So far, there has been no intention from the bloc to create a joint European nuclear deterrent.
IIRC, the United State provided France assistance with its nuclear weapons program back in the 1970s:
https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/nukevault/ebb346/

I wouldn't exactly count on the US doing that again, particularly if Germany becomes involved with the program.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.
- misattributed to Alexis De Tocqueville

No representations made as to the accuracy of info in posted news articles or links

User avatar
LaPalice
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 4521
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:42 am
Location: France

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1214 Post by LaPalice » Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:35 pm

chijohnaok wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:28 pm
LaPalice wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:53 pm
France seems to desire to enlarge its nuclear deterrence to the rest of Europe. And if you read the end of the article, you see that Germany would like to play a role in European deterrence.

In post-Brexit push, Macron calls for European nuclear arms control agenda

IIRC, the United State provided France assistance with its nuclear weapons program back in the 1970s:
https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/nukevault/ebb346/

I wouldn't exactly count on the US doing that again, particularly if Germany becomes involved with the program.
If I remember well, Wulfir said that he would be ok with a German nuclear program. I am not sure that I would approve of that. It is a good thing that France remains the only nuclear superpower in EU, it is good for its power :)

But, maybe I am wrong, I think that the Germans have on their soil American nuclear bombs which have two keys, one for the Americans and one for the Germans, like that they must agree together before using them.

wulfir
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 4820
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:41 pm

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1215 Post by wulfir » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:04 pm

I don't have a problem with German nukes, most Germans do however. I'm not really a fan of NBC weapons but Europe will need them. Relying on France only might not be enough. More Euro nations with nukes sounds good to me. Start with Poland and Finland...

User avatar
NATO
Gunnery Sergeant
Posts: 5100
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:42 pm
Location: North Atlantic Treaty Organization

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1216 Post by NATO » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:26 pm

wulfir wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:04 pm
I don't have a problem with German nukes, most Germans do however. I'm not really a fan of NBC weapons but Europe will need them. Relying on France only might not be enough. More Euro nations with nukes sounds good to me. Start with Poland and Finland...
call me a lefty or anti-german...whatever. I dont trust the germans with nukes. I have either lived in or visited Germany for 45 years, My parents were born there. Germany acquiring nukes wud lead to civil war in Germany on the streets. I wud rather see their stock market steadily increase next 10 years (that's money for me). Let the French and Brits remain with the ability to nuke Europe or the rest of the world. My only concern is that both nations no longer have the geopolitical, intellectual leadership or strategic foresight to understand what it means to have nukes whereas the krauts do not.

wulfir
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 4820
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:41 pm

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1217 Post by wulfir » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:50 pm

Germany is a key player in Europe, but then there's still WW2.

France, I doubt them, given history. Could be wrong here, but yeah.

The Brits I doubt even more, now.

Our opponents will have nukes, just the way it is...

Anthropoid
Sergeant Major
Posts: 16876
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:06 pm
Location: Marching home to <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAzVYCs4BMY">Erica</a>

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1218 Post by Anthropoid » Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:28 am

I cannot recall the exact treaty or agreement but I'm fairly certain it is permanently forbidden for the Reich to ever possess nukes.

wulfir
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 4820
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:41 pm

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1219 Post by wulfir » Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:34 am

Treaties can change, be ignored, reworked.

User avatar
chijohnaok
Sergeant Major
Posts: 38213
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:50 pm
Location: West coast of the east coast
Contact:

Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1220 Post by chijohnaok » Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:56 am

wulfir wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:34 am
Treaties can change, be ignored, reworked.
Germany is bound to a number of treaties which prohibit it from using weapons of mass destruction:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_a ... estruction

While some of those treaties involve just “friendly” Western Powers, at least one of them (Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany) include the Soviet Union (of which Russia is the successor).
Wulfir, what do you think are the odds that Putin/Russia would agree to a revision of the treaty and allow Germany to develop nukes?

My guess is that Russia votes “absolutely fucking not”.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.
- misattributed to Alexis De Tocqueville

No representations made as to the accuracy of info in posted news articles or links

Post Reply