Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

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mdiehl
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Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1181 Post by mdiehl » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:54 am

The US isn't really a super power. You don't have much power if you're influence is solely sustained by destroying your middle class in order to subsidize other nations' economies.
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jack t ripper
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Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1182 Post by jack t ripper » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:38 am

When the lizard people from Betelguese invade in the movies there never seems to be a discussion about a 2% of GDP target for military spending.
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wulfir
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Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1183 Post by wulfir » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:34 pm

jwilkerson wrote:... europe should look to its needs first ...
Remove NATO and Europe has the EU.

Europe needs nukes. Getting them and figuring out how to deploy and under what circumstances to use them will be a biatch. Maybe undoable.

I figure the British are basically out of the picture and the French alone are too much of a maybe to function as a nuclear deterrent in a European context.

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Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1184 Post by jwilkerson » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:43 pm

... Europe needs nukes ...
Europe has nucs !!

And you really think Europe needs more nucs is the first priority ?

I'd say a somewhat balanced build up is in order. It doesn't seem like the krauts really have a military any more !!??

==
I think if any state actor started throwing nucs around, the UK and USA would both be very interested in that. Regardless of any pre-existing treaties or lack thereof.

I'm not opposed to allies, I'm just opposed to them in peace time. :D
Last edited by jwilkerson on Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1185 Post by jack t ripper » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:44 pm

If the friggin' Pakis can build nukes then Germany or Sweden could do it. :lol:
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Anthropoid
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Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1186 Post by Anthropoid » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:33 pm

I am pretty sure Germany is treaty bound to NOT have "nukes." Certainly the French are unlikely to look favorably on any such "build up."

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Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1187 Post by jack t ripper » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:35 pm

I think you can announce you are withdrawing from the NPT.

The Iranians tried to have it both ways and cheated...enriching uranium without withdrawing.
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Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1188 Post by Anthropoid » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:38 pm

jack t ripper wrote:I think you can announce you are withdrawing from the NPT.

The Iranians tried to have it both ways and cheated...enriching uranium without withdrawing.
Well sure! Treaties don't ACTUALLY bind anything!

But, they do provide guidelines which everyone can use to decide on additional actions.

IF Germany were to withdraw from the NPT (and I believe there are also some national level pieces of paper they'd have to 'tear up' as well), they could expect "reactions" from many different quarters, not the least being the French Quarter!

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Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1189 Post by wulfir » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:39 am

jwilkerson wrote:Europe has nucs !!

And you really think Europe needs more nucs is the first priority ?
The French have nukes, and I would expect they will come into play when the Russian spearheads approach the French border.

The Brits - well, what hope is there? They are on their way out of the EU. BoJo seems to take Putin's money, Corbyn wants to disarm not to provoke Putin...

In short this means that any funding of conventional European forces will take place under Russian NBC dominance, and the Russian nuclear de-escalation doctrine.


Nobody here seems to have much faith in the French value as a NATO alliance partner, but you figure they will fire nukes if the Russians go for the Baltic states and finish up with a single tactical warhead on Gdansk? :P

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Re: Will Europe Ever Defend Itself?

#1190 Post by wulfir » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:49 am

jack t ripper wrote:If the friggin' Pakis can build nukes then Germany or Sweden could do it. :lol:
Sweden had a nuclear arms program running into the 1960s, but dropped it.

I don't think the know-how, or funding is really the problem. It's the willpower.

Understand this;
1) Sweden to a large degree has a peace-damaged population. No cities bombed in WWII. No generation massacred in WWI.
2) Germany has a war-damaged population. World War 2, extreme guilt of.

How do you get the majority of these populations to support investments in "nuclear-death-missile-bombs"? Especially if there is difficulty in getting the just the conventional forces in order?

:D

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