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 Post subject: What's good for the goose, is good for the gander...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:48 pm 
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https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/y ... rnization/

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Your Marine Corps

Trailblazing female who became infantry Marine is getting kicked out for fraternization

By: Andrea Scott   1 day ago

Remedios Cruz joined the Marine Corps in 2013 as a supply clerk. One year later, she completed infantry training, and in 2017, made history when she became one of three females to join 1st Battalion, 8th Marines at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina.

Now, Cruz is awaiting separation from the Marine Corps after pleading guilty to maintaining a romantic relationship with a subordinate.

Cruz, 26, eventually married the person, who was a lower-ranking Marine in her unit, according The New York Times.

“The biggest mistakes I’ve made in the infantry were from my personal relationships,” Cruz told the Times. “I really want to move on.”

Cruz was reduced in rank from sergeant to corporal and restricted to the base after pleading guilty to fraternization as part of a broader plea agreement. The commanding general of 2nd Marine Division will now decide if she will be forced out with an other-than-honorable discharge, according to the Times.


“Regardless of the outcome of this case, Corporal Cruz has been a courageous pioneer for women in the military and she has earned a place in Marine Corps history,” Cruz’s lawyer, Capt. Jacob R. Johnston, said in a statement to The New York Times.

Andrea Scott is editor of Marine Corps Times. On Twitter: @_andreascott.




My choice of thread title is NOT meant to imply that fraternatization by male servicemember officers/NCOs is in any way justified because female officers/NCOs do the same thing. Rather what I am saying is that if male officers are subject to punishment for fraternizing with lower-ranking service members then the same should also apply to female officers.

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 Post subject: Re: What's good for the goose, is good for the gander...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:44 pm 
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Not sure how to react to this.

There is a great difference between officer and enlisted ranks. This difference could be used by an officer to use his/her authority to pressure an enlisted person into a sexual act or relationship. An extreme example of this would be the Commander-in-Chief pinging on young female interns.

When it comes to enlisted folks, I didn't think they were this extreme on the regulation. Pretty much everyone makes it to Sargent now-a-days in a couple years. So as I say, I'm not so sure this is a good thing or not as I believe fraternization among the enlisted ranks has not been enforced to this extent, though I may be wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: What's good for the goose, is good for the gander...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:50 pm 
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Lava wrote:
Not sure how to react to this.

There is a great difference between officer and enlisted ranks. This difference could be used by an officer to use his/her authority to pressure an enlisted person into a sexual act or relationship. An extreme example of this would be the Commander-in-Chief pinging on young female interns.

When it comes to enlisted folks, I didn't think they were this extreme on the regulation. Pretty much everyone makes it to Sargent now-a-days in a couple years. So as I say, I'm not so sure this is a good thing or not as I believe fraternization among the enlisted ranks has not been enforced to this extent, though I may be wrong.



True or fale?:
The Marines have always been a little bit different from everyone else.
;-)

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 Post subject: Re: What's good for the goose, is good for the gander...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:08 pm 
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It's been quite awhile since I've been in the military, but we had women back then and I kinda got the vib that when it came to relations between enlisted ranks (given that they were not in the same CoC) folks looked the other way.

Having said that I know of 2 admiral douche bags (4 stars) who were forced to retire for relationships with enlisted women.

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 Post subject: Re: What's good for the goose, is good for the gander...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:52 am 
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Not sure what all the fuss about "fraternization" really is. One of the most effective fighting forces in history was the 'Sacred Band of Thebes" 150 pairs of dudes! :P


I also hear tell that some serious commentators have suggested that the best social units on which to base human exploration and resource exploitation of space would be married couples.

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Last edited by Anthropoid on Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What's good for the goose, is good for the gander...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:03 am 
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Anthropoid wrote:
Not sure what all the fuss about "fraternization" really is. One of the most effective fighting forces in history was the 'Sacred Band of Thebes" 150 pairs of dudes! :P
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTp8vR2EjDs[/youtube}

I also hear tell that some serious commentators have suggested that the best social units on which to base human exploration and resource exploitation of space would be married couples.


I think that the fuss about "fraternization" is when it is abused.
Higher ranking managers using their level of position to take advantage of those below them.

And that can go both ways. A person at a lower level using sex with a manager/superior officer as a way to gain favors/promotions.

While I have never served in the military, I would presume that the 'fraternization' rules are to minimize the sorts of incidents that I have listed above.

Additionally, there might also be situations where other servicemembers might see an enlisted rank (or lower level rank) using a sexual relationship with a higher ranked officer as a way to gain favor and that could lead to morale issues with the rest of the unit.

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 Post subject: Re: What's good for the goose, is good for the gander...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:49 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:

I think that the fuss about "fraternization" is when it is abused.
Higher ranking managers using their level of position to take advantage of those below them.

And that can go both ways. A person at a lower level using sex with a manager/superior officer as a way to gain favors/promotions.

While I have never served in the military, I would presume that the 'fraternization' rules are to minimize the sorts of incidents that I have listed above.

Additionally, there might also be situations where other servicemembers might see an enlisted rank (or lower level rank) using a sexual relationship with a higher ranked officer as a way to gain favor and that could lead to morale issues with the rest of the unit.


Well explained.

The problem in this case is while a Sargent having an affair with a Corporal is technically fraternization... is this a situation which would breech good order and discipline.

I'm not so sure...

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 Post subject: Re: What's good for the goose, is good for the gander...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:00 pm 
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Hecque, I've known plenty of married enlisted couples ... THOUGH ... they were not in the same company/battalion, etc. though they were on the same post ... so in the same unit at the 2 star level, but not at the LTC level or below ... Commander level for you squids ... :)

Sexual harassment, definitely different from a consenting relationship in my book. But, if you find yourself "in love" with a person in your unit, best to get one of you transferred asap. It actually happened to me ... and the first thing I did was tell the chain of command .. and I got myself transferred even though the LTC "screamed" ... (he didn't want me to get transferred ... which I guess was a complement ) ... but I had a "professional" excuse ... I was 13B and the Artillery Battery to which I was nominally assigned was being moved to a different brigade ... and it made sense to move me ... though the LTC could have gotten my orders revoked ... but officially I didn't have to use the "relationship" excuse ... even though the chain of command up to the Battery Commander were in the loop.

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