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Re: Shooting and Firearms

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:10 pm
by jwilkerson
15 MPH S

Goal: dots and groups

Environment: Warm, windy, sunny

Equipment: From top to bottom

5.56(18) xtr2 1.5-8x CQ-MIL FM (r) 77gr

REM700 7.62(20) Bravo NF 2.5-10x MIL-R FGMM 175gr

5.56(18) xtr2 1.5-8x CQ-MIL FM (r) 77gr

GAP 7.62(20) NF 4-16x T3 M118LR 175gr


Activity: Set up three targets with 7 x 3/4 inch dots each. First center dot is for the "sighters". Then six dots in the outer ring "for the record". In theory, if I am shooting a box of 20 rds. I shoot 2 sighters at the center and then 3 rds each at the outer ring dots.

First up to bat was the 7.62(20) bolt gun with 2 mags each of 9 rds.


The first "sighter" group was the best and I fired 3 rds so I will count it. I was only shooting 18 rds. The first round was high, the second left and the third low. That didn't really tell me anything, except there was something wrong with me :D

Second group was the 9 o'clock, first two rounds were high and the third low.

Third group was the 7 o'clock, first to rounds left, third round right.

Fourth group was the 4 o'clock first rd centered right, second rd low, third rd high.

Fifth group 3 o'clock, first two rds high, third rd low.

Sixth group first rd wide right and high, second and third rds high and centered.

That winds up being 1.144 MOA which is the worst prone group set I recall in 6 months. More on the analysis later.

Second up to bat was the 5.56(18) stoner with 1 mag of 18 rds.


First group all rds high.

Second group all rds high (9 o'clock and then counter clockwise for all other groups)

Third group, tight but high again. I decided to crank down 2 clicks (.2 mils)

Fourth group wild but "centered" on the dot

Fifth group marginal, and a bit right

Sixth group also marginal and a bit right.

That wound up being 0.895 MOA, not good, more on the analysis later.

And last but not least was the 7.62(20) stoner a new gun, though I did some pre-zeroing yesterday.


Here I was shooting 20 rds, so the first two were the real sighters and they didn't count. Then other groups are starting at 8-9 o'clock and going counter-clockwise.

After I fired the 2 sighters, I clicked left 4 and down 3.

These groups were almost decent, especially for the first attempt and I made no further adjustments.

Average was 0.776 MOA.

Results/Summary: So with the bolt gun and the 5.56 this was the first attempt to shoot dots n groups for the record with scopes with less than 15x magnification. So for those guns, can I play the "not enough magnification card" ?? I think not. With the xtr2 1.5-8x CQ-MIL scope especially the center dot is REAL TINY. So small, I have mentally complained about it in the past. But I've decided to try real hard to make it work. Because I think I might be able to get the patrol to work with it as a clipon. So with this really tiny dot, if the reticle dot is on the target dot, which is larger than the reticle dot, I cannot see the target dot, so I know it is somewhere on the target dot. And for each shot, the dots were matched up. So, I don't think the not enough magnification card works for the 1.5-8x.
With the 2.5-10x MIL-R I felt fine. I don't think I could "quarter" the dots like I can with the higher powered scopes. But I'm sure the center of the reticle was on the dot, though I can't swear it was on the center of the dot. But these wild swings in POI have to be something other than magnification. I think it is that I had a light jacket over my head trying to shield my eyes from the sun shinning directly into them. Without the jacket, I could barely see the target at all due to the various glare effects. And I couldn't really tell if I was properly behind the scope. That is I couldn't tell whether I had shadows or not with the jacket up there because it was obscuring my view of the scope from the rear. So, I will play the "trying to use jacket to block sun" card for both of those guns results. I've used the jacket before and gotten decent results, but not from prone. I've only used it off the tripod previously.

With the GAP the sun was higher in the sky and I went without the jacket and I think that partly explains the better results. Otherwise, I think I was high with the dots on the top of the target due to position. I am often high on the high dots. So that is me and position.

The gun I feel best about in terms of being zeroed well enough for other purposes is the GAP. The bolt gun is next best and the 5.56(18) third. I try to shoot dots and groups as many days of the week and possible. And the regimen will continue with these three guns as they have sufficient ammo for the purpose.

Re: Shooting and Firearms

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:35 pm
by jwilkerson

Goal: Wind practice

Environment: Warm, windy, mostly clear.

Equipment: 7.62(20) Bravo NF 2.5-10x MIL-R FGMM 175gr Kestrel Zeiss LRF Binos with 3x Pack with water and first aid and 2 rear bags (also carried the binos and commanche bag)


Activity: Rolled out to 500yd FP and setup. Threw two tufts of dead grass in the air and wind direction was 225 off the bullet path. Measured wind speed for 3m got:

Low: 8.1
Avg: 14.7
High 21.7

Listening and watching decided to hold for 15 MPH which AB said was 1.2 MIL left. AB also said 3.3 MILs up so I dialed that. The first time, I've dialed in the field since I can remember, well over 18 months. But one reason I got this scope was so I would have 2 active scopes that are dialing scopes, versus my other 4 active scopes which are holding scopes (T3). I don't want to completely loose the dialing skill.
So the first round was 4 inch left but level with the aiming spot. So 15 MPH was too much. Next shot I held half a mil less, 0.75 mils left and got a hit. I couldn't hear it (wind rustling trees nearby too much) but I could see the steel wiggle. Then rolled over to the Zeiss used the left barrel with the 3x multiplier (net 30x) my "spotter" and there was a good bit of mirage, but I could see the splotch and it looked centered vertically but a little left.
I then aimed at the next target to the right 0.75 for wind and got a hit. Again I could see the steel move, but not hear the hit.
I then shifted fire to the two targets at 250yds ... dialed for 0.9 mils up and at 270 wind 15 MPH AB said 0.7 left and I held 0.75 left. Hit both targets.

Here is the first target, which I hit with the second shot. That's about 2 inches due left of the aiming point, well maybe 1.5 inches.


And here is the second target. This hit might be 2 inches low and 4 inches right.


Summary/Results: Also I moved the taller target to a different spot. In the warmer half the 425-770 yds shooting area is closed due to cattle in the adjacent pasture. But in this new spot, not only will I be shooting downhil per normal, but there is a 20 foot high creekbank about 150yds back in the woods as the backstop. But that's why the berm is not visible on the target 1 pic, since I took the pic after I moved the target. That's 640yds from today's FP and should be a little more interesting than the 500yd target for wind practice.

From prone, I can see about 80-90% of that target.


For those who forgot my scoring system:

0 points for a hit. Penalty points for misses. Goal is to score 0. Lowest score wins.

Penalty points:

250yds = 8
500yds = 4
500yds face = 2
750yds = 3
1,050yds = 2

So today was a "4" which is not too good, but not terrible. It is however, the worst I've done since starting this system.

Re: Shooting and Firearms

Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:06 pm
by jwilkerson
20 MPH

Goal: Wind Practice

Environment: Windy ! Warm, Clear, plenty of mirage.

Equipment: 7.62(20), NF 2.5-10x MIL-R, RAPTAR, FGMM 175gr

Activity: Rolled out to the 500yd FP and setup.


Took 2 min wind read.

Hi: 25.1
Avg: 18.4
Low: 11.9

Threw 4 tufts of grass up, decided on 315 degrees off the bullet path.

AB said 3.3 up and 1.2 left. Dialed 3.3 up. Held for the wind. Impact 4 inches left of the target, but level with the POA. Changed wind direction to 345 off bullet path (adding 30 degrees). Held 0.6 left. Hit the target.


Shifted to the 239yd and 241yd targets. AB said up 0.7 and right 0.2 ... dialed the elevation held then wind, hit, hit.

Then to the 640yd target. AB said dial 5.1 up, so I did. Est. wind direction as 340 off the bullet path and AB said hold 1.1 left, so I did. Hit (lower right corner).


Summary/Results: In strong head winds like this, getting the wind direction right is the key. And I got different results with my 4 tufts, so I had to split the difference. But the way I did it was to set the gun pointed exactly at the target. Then stand in front of the gun and toss the grass and watching the angle.

I could see the dust of the miss and it was close, 10 inches left from the POA, 0.66 mils roughly, so getting a hit was much easier after this "sighter". And I was able to see the splotch of the hit on the target and that it was left.

The two close targets are easy. For the far target, I guessed 5 degrees difference from the 500yd target and that was too much. If I'd guessed half that, I would've hit 4.5 inches left and been close to dead center. Now why was I low ? The wind was buffeting me around, even though I was prone. And there was some mirage. I don't think I got the elevation wrong. It was barely a hit, but in this game a hit is a hit. I could see the steel swing and the center of the bullet strike is vislble on the target.

Before departing I tried a thru the lens pic of the 640yd target.


Re: Shooting and Firearms

Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:28 pm
by jwilkerson

Goal: Wind Practice

Environment: Wind from almost exact opposite direction today compared to yesterday, and at about 2/3rds the strength of yesterday. Light Rain (big drops but still light rain) overcast. Some mirage.

Equipment: 7.62(20) S (now that I have a 20 inch bolt gun and a 20 inch stoner, I use "B" for the bolt gun and "S" for the stoner) NF 4-16x T3, kestrel, M118LR.

Gun to the front was used today.


Activity: Rolled out to 500yd FP and setup. Today I decided not to bother with the 239//241 yard targets until I can get some smaller targets.
So started on the 500yd target. Did 2 min wind read, got:

Lo: 5.2
Avg: 9.4
Hi: 14.6

And based on 4 tosses of the grass I est. direction at 150 deg off the bullet path.

AB said hold up 3.0 and I held right for 3 mph. Hit.


Next for the face, held the sime but aimed for the face. Hit


Then to the 640 target.

AB Said hold up 4.8 and I est. wind direction to be 147 and held for 4 mph.

Miss, and no feedback due to the nature of the terrain there. I increased wind hold to 6 mph. Miss.

I decreased to 2 mph and I saw a tiny puff of white fly up from the target, so I suspected that was a hit. Went down to check targets and take pics and yes it was a hit. The bullet fragmentation scraped some of the paint off the target and I was able to see it.



Source today was 6, 3 points for each of the two misses at 640yds.

I could only see the top half of the target at 640 and the mirage for that target was pretty bad. From my vantage point, the target was always moving, due to wind and mirage, whether I hit it or not and the actual hit did not move it more, nor did I hear anything. In some conditions, even these 3/8 inch targets are too thick for .308 !?

Re: Shooting and Firearms

Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 7:32 pm
by jwilkerson

Goal: Ranging and Wind practice

Environment: Partly could, almost no wind, warm, muddy.

Equipment: 7.62(20) Bolt gun, NF NXS 2.5-10x MIL-R, RAPTAR, RRS. Zeiss 10x45 LRF, 7.62(20) stoner, NF 4-16x T3, M118LR 175gr

Activity #1: First took the Bravo bolt gun and RAPTAR up on signal hill to see how far I could range today ... as usual started at features 5,300 yds away and worked my way down. Since I've ranged everything around me at night ... a lot of stuff is known distance ... finally got a hit at 1736 yds (1587 meters).


Ranged it a bunch of times to make sure it was repeatable. It was a corral and bunk feeder setup. Empty. But I kept at it and finally got a return off a galvanized tin shed at 4000yds. Now I'm skeptical of big round numbers when ranging, so I ranged on it some more ... and got a lot of 4001 and 4000 returns, so I finally believed it. But I wouldn't count on that result. With as much sun as I was facing today, I think the 1736 number is more likely.


Activity #2 RTB, swapped out gear, took GAP-10 and Zeiss and a box of M118LR. Also took the cattle some range cubes.
I set up in a slightly differnt spot this time, farther down the hill, in a clump of trees. Ranged and got 620yds with the Zeiss on what I normally call the 640yds target, when I'm shooting it from farther up the hill.


Wind check was 1.4 mph direction undetermined, AB said up 4.6 mils no hold for wind. So I held up and fired and could see the steel dancing around.

Went and checked target.


Hit was pretty much level with aiming point though about 4 inches to the right.

After the cattle finished their range cubes they decided to come visit me ...


That's not unusual, but they stayed a LOT longer this time. About 25m. Usually it is just around 10m. I guess they really wanted some more range cube, but it was not to be.


AB said 2.9 up and the wind was still negligible, so I held 2.9 up and saw the target dance.


About 3 inches low of the aiming point.

During the lull ... I ranged everything I could see with the Zeiss and the Radius. The Zeiss got a metal barn at 1412. The radius got a metal roof at 1045.

Re: Shooting and Firearms

Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 9:04 pm
by jack t ripper
Is the spall on the target molten metal from the target or the round?

The rangefinder is laser or radar? "RAPTAR" is an acronym or just a brand name. It is 2019 so I presume the former but the name seems odd.

Also, what are the physics of why it doesn't perform as well in daylight? Ambient light at the same wavelength? Very interesting kit you have there. Can we come over to your place and have some ribeyes if there is a global thermonuclear war? ;)

I'll bring the Bordeaux and the Cabernets

Re: Shooting and Firearms

Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 7:24 am
by jwilkerson
Is the spall on the target molten metal from the target or the round?
The round ... if you follow the manufacturers instructions, these hard steel targets never "pit". I have hundreds of rounds which have impacted my 5 steel targets and zero pits on any of them. That is in essence "dust" that you see. You can wipe or even blow it off.
The rangefinder is laser or radar?
"RAPTAR" is an acronym or just a brand name.
Acronym = Rapid Targeting and Ranging
The brand name is Wilcox
what are the physics of why it doesn't perform as well in daylight? Ambient light at the same wavelength?
Here's a table that shows when they do better and when they do worse. And yes, ambient "light" at the same wave length is the answer.

Can we come over to your place and have some ribeyes if there is a global thermonuclear war?
Yes, but it will be a LOOONG journey ... and I doubt you'll make it ... I didn't think we would either, hence we redeployed before hand :D

Now for some more detail.

I have 5 ranging lasers (I think :D)
Four of them have ranging lasers that operate at 905nm
One of them (the RAPTAR) has ranging laser that operates at 1550nm

The 905nm lasers can enter your eye and damage the retina if they operate at high enough power.
The 1550nm laser is a high enough frequency that is is absorbed by the cornea and does not damage the retina even at high power.

So, the advantage of the 1550nm ranging laser is that it can be MUCH higher powered and still not be a risk to damaging your eye.

That said, the 905nm does a better job of ranging in air containing water, all other things being equal. They just aren't, the higher powered 1550nm will still do a better job.

The top 5 range finders in this chart are 1550nm the others are 905nm

Image ... s-ranging/ ... conditions

Re: Shooting and Firearms

Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 6:48 pm
by jack t ripper
Interesting. It turns out 1550 nm is the optimum wavelength for fiberoptic as well.

Next summer I will cache some freeze dried crap and canned bacon every 80 miles on the way to your place so I can walk if I have to. :lol:

Re: Shooting and Firearms

Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 7:42 pm
by jwilkerson

Goal: Range IPSC(2/3) at > 800yds

Environment: Cool ! It was 38F this morning and temps under 45F the rest of the day. Solid overcast. Breeze from the north. VERY muddy. Ground like a sponge, it has been raining for 6 days ... the grass on the other hand is ZOOMING for the sky. The brome is the best I've seen it in six years.

Equipment: Rem700 7.62(20) Bravo, NF 2.5-10x MIL-R, RAPTAR S/ES v2. RRS. Kestrel 2500nv. FGMM 175gr 7.62 load mv2594.

Activity: Rolled out to signal hill and fed the cattle some range cubes to keep them busy. Then headed over to hill 1309 and set up around 800yds. This shot is over the tops of the trees to the North, along a creek that runs from West to East. The top of the creek bank is 1150 and I'm at 1300. The ground rises in my pasture on the other side of the creek and the target is in a tree line over there. I first ranged twice and got 798 both times. Then I turned around walked back six big steps and setup again. Got 804yds this time. Took pics then decided to try a shot. So threw 2 tufts of grass up and got 10 degrees off the bullet path. Then Took out the kestrel and did a 2 min wind read. Got

low: 5.8
avg: 6.9
high: 8.7

REAL AB on phone (using g7) said dial 7.7 so I cranked 77 clicks up. AB said no wind hold.
So I aimed and fired ... saw the steel dance and eventually heard CLANG.

Then rolled to the target. I knew I had forgotten to paint the target after the last session, so needed to paint it and take pics.

Compared to prior target pic, we can see today's hit. It looks different from the others anyway.

These must be magic bullets I'm firing I haven't missed one of these wind practice shots in several sessions ! :) The goal is first round hit, of course.


This is pic right after I setup. As you can see, I am up against the East facing fence, this is about as far back as I can get and still see the target. If I move to the left, the lay of the land blocks the target.


Here is thru the lens pic. First look at the top of the scope and you should be able to see the 804yds showing up there on the RAPTAR display.

Then click on the pic and zoom in as much as you can.

This IPSC (2/3) target is hanging from a 2x4. The 2x4 runs from about 0.5 mils on the right side of the center of the cross hair to about 2 mils to the right. And level with the 1 mil hash below the cross hair.
If you can see that 2x4 then below that hangs the grey IPSC target. The top of the target is level with the 1 mil line below the cross hair and goes down to the 2 mil line. The verticle center of the target is under the 1 mil to the right of the cross hair hash mark. Well I can see it anyway :D



Today's hit is to the right side of the target level with the center of the body. It is the one that looks less white than all the others.


And for reference, here is the target pic from back on April 6th, the last time I shot at this target. So you can check which one is today's hit by looking at that target also.

Summary/Results: So the RAPTAR can range an IPSC(2/3) target at 804yds and the FGMM 175gr ammo can get a first round hit on such a target even with me shooting it :)

Re: Shooting and Firearms

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 7:24 am
by Zad Fnark
I'm getting out tomorrow, since my usual gun range is no longer underwater.

Hopefully get some pics.