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 Post subject: Re: Embrace Diversity!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:07 pm 
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LaPalice wrote:
If there is a big demand of housing and a limited supply, the prices are going to increase, even if the demand can’t pay the price that the market sets up. You can ask the market to resolve the problem or you can take measure to help the demand and the supply get together. Here, you need that the supply increases. But the housing market is a “heavy” one, so only something as strong or big as the state can help the supply to meet a big demand.


My point is that state intervention discourages private solutions to the "housing crisis".
The gov building housing means some private company does not do so at its own risk and expense. Instead, your tax Euros are are wasted on corruption and incompetence.
Where there is sufficient demand and €€€/$$$ to be made, investors will fall over themselves.


LaPalice wrote:
The two can do it, and the two can fail. For example, the Airbus A380 is built by a privatised company and it has many problems. When Airbus was public, the construction of airplanes did not know those problems.


Well no.
When Airbus was public, they never tried anything as ambitious as the A380, which is groundbreaking tech. There also happens to be a market for high-cap, long-range passenger airplanes. The subject is a lot more complicated than public/private.


LaPalice wrote:
France from 1945 to now shows that the state can do great things to modernize a country.


I do in many ways agree would like to add that I got a lot of respect for the French approach. Where many of our anglo posters may likely only see commie policies and those very wrong, macro-state solutions one has to admit that, looking at the results, France is doing pretty well, and has been for a long time. NATO sometimes waffles (sorry dude) on your Frankish heritage and in a sense I do think this is what makes your approach work - in France. The French are actually up for this and the collective believe makes it happen. My admiration for French idealism is genuine, but this place is quite post-utopian.

OTOH, France has its own banksters, nuclear and oil interest, tinpot dictators in its pocket and more overseas interest than I would care for. Strings attached i guess....

LaPalice wrote:
The state does necessarily not need to cap the price at 289 euros if the market price is at 300 euros. It can help the students, the unemployed… by giving them a help in money to pay the rent. Anyway, a home is as important as food. If there is a shortage of food, you don’t expect that the market resolves it, you want that the state does something because the situation is urgent.


The devil´s in the details as always. The point is, the gov capping rents means an arbitrary price always. The gov subsidizing "worthy" beneficiaries (students, unemployed) means someone else who is making the exact same amount of money but not eligible is screwed and goes slumwards. Which means social engineering, which need not even be a bad thing.

It´s just where you apply gov leverage. Welfare recipients, they can expect social engineering. Home owners being told exactly what to do with their property, not so.

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 Post subject: Re: Embrace Diversity!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:19 pm 
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knuckles_95 wrote:
The vast majority of our homeless are either mentally ill or veterans. .



:roll:

learned that at media matters huh? News flash: most bums who claim to be "veterans" aren't. Any and all actual veterans who have no source of income at all are entitled to a one thousand dollar monthly "special pension". You can find it in the veteran's benefit handbook available from any veteran's group.

The catch is they mean NO source of income. That means none. You don't have to be disabled; just totally broke. VA social workers sign up "the poor" for this the moment they walk in the door. Crackas are told to get a job.

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 Post subject: Re: Embrace Diversity!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:25 pm 
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Old Eagle wrote:
Quote:
Was anything I said false?

The majority of homeless are drunks, drug addicts and the insane. A small percentage of them may have served in the military and an even smaller percentage may be homeless because of the military. There is no correlation at all between military service and homelessness.

26% of the homeless are veterans

Quote:
Veterans represent 11% of the adult civilian population, but 26% of the homeless population, according to the Homeless Research Institute (2007)


The reasons they cite for them being homeless:

Quote:
1. Lack of income due to limited education and lack of transferable skills from military to civilian life (especially true of younger veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan)
2. Combat-related physical health issues and disabilities
3. Combat-related mental health issues and disabilities
4. Substance abuse problems that interfere with job retention
5. Weak social networks due to problems adjusting to civilian life
6. Lack of services.


Looks like a pretty strong correlation to me

http://www.veteransinc.org/about-us/statistics/


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 Post subject: Re: Embrace Diversity!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:27 pm 
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Scharfschütze wrote:

But market means both supply and demand. If there is a lot of demand for decent, non-slum leaving at say 300€ a person per month, the market will provide.

.



there is a lot of demand for slums run by democrats who lease it to the state for five grand a month and call it "low income housing". The tenants don't pay; the government does. This drives up the cost for everyone else. Six thousand a year in property taxes on a rental house means the tenant pays an extra five hundred a month.

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 Post subject: Re: Embrace Diversity!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:28 pm 
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EUBanana wrote:
No, this is ignorant. Not in the case of rentals.

If you are a landlord and you want to rent out your asset you charge what the market will bear. And if you charge too much you get 0 and an empty asset.

In the rental sector the price is only ever what the market will bear. You can see evidence of this in the British housing market. British rental yield atm is about 2.5%. Given you get 3.5% by sticking the money in a savings account, this is absolutely terrible returns, especially as that doesn't include maintenance and voids. It's simply not possible to get blood out of a stone and rents cannot go up any further.

Needless to say such crap returns will reduce the demand to buy a house as an investment, especially when people get into their thick heads that their value is falling, and so they will become less attractive as an asset to own and their price will fall.

The good old invisible hand is not magic, the logic of it is inexorable. ;)

Well, of course the demand still can pay the rent, even if it is high. You are right, if the demand could not pay it, the price would decrease. But the supply does not meet the demand, so the price increases. The demand still has the power to pay it, but the % of the rent in the family budget increase, meaning that the family must take measures to pay the rent. For example the prices in Paris are high. So people working in Paris must move away more and more from the city. That means that the rent there is lower, but at the same time the family will have to pay the transports, either it takes the train or its car.

Well, what I try to say is that having a home is a basic necessity for everybody. So the price can increase to levels where the people will have to make sacrifices to have one. For example a family of 4 or 5 people is going to live in an apartment with two rooms only, or in a dilapidated house, whatever the price. That’s the housing crisis in France.

So market theories can seem beautiful in theory, but here we talk about real people. Plus the market is run by human being, so there is nothing logical in it.


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 Post subject: Re: Embrace Diversity!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:31 pm 
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Scharfschütze wrote:
NATO sometimes waffles (sorry dude) on your Frankish heritage

yeah, you're right.
Just wish Palice would pay more attention to his Frankish heritage.

Nevertheless:
God Bless America
Vive La France
Es Lebe das Ewige Deutschland ( Lt Col Stauffenberg Jul 20, 1944)


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 Post subject: Re: Embrace Diversity!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:33 pm 
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doggie wrote:
knuckles_95 wrote:
The vast majority of our homeless are either mentally ill or veterans. .



:roll:

learned that at media matters huh? News flash: most bums who claim to be "veterans" aren't. Any and all actual veterans who have no source of income at all are entitled to a one thousand dollar monthly "special pension". You can find it in the veteran's benefit handbook available from any veteran's group.

The catch is they mean NO source of income. That means none. You don't have to be disabled; just totally broke. VA social workers sign up "the poor" for this the moment they walk in the door. Crackas are told to get a job.

You left out a part from the VA website:

Quote:
you are age 65 or older, OR, you are permanently and totally disabled, not due to your own willful misconduct.


How many veterans are under 65? How many veterans do you know that is 100% disabled? I know someone who can barely get up and down stairs because his knees are shot from jumping out of planes and he only get 30%. Now you want to tell me that the Department of Veteran Affairs is a wing of Media Matters? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Embrace Diversity!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:37 pm 
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Scharfschütze wrote:
My point is that state intervention discourages private solutions to the "housing crisis".
The gov building housing means some private company does not do so at its own risk and expense. Instead, your tax Euros are are wasted on corruption and incompetence.
Where there is sufficient demand and €€€/$$$ to be made, investors will fall over themselves.

Who cares? There is no private solution to the housing crisis. Show me were the private sector resolves the problem that we have here in France. If there is a housing crisis here, it is not because there is too much state, it is because the supply does not meet the demand. The demand is too high and the private sector can’t follow it. The prices skyrocket and a part of the population (15%) must accept what the market offers: shit. Again, there was a housing crisis in the 50’s and the 60's and the state, and only it, resolved it.


Last edited by LaPalice on Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Embrace Diversity!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:39 pm 
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LaPalice wrote:
Well, of course the demand still can pay the rent, even if it is high. You are right, if the demand could not pay it, the price would decrease. But the supply does not meet the demand, so the price increases. The demand still has the power to pay it, but the % of the rent in the family budget increase, meaning that the family must take measures to pay the rent. For example the prices in Paris are high. So people working in Paris must move away more and more from the city. That means that the rent there is lower, but at the same time the family will have to pay the transports, either it takes the train or its car.


Hmm. Well.

If the rents are so high then there must be some sort of reason why landlords aren't piling into the business, because thats the natural thing that would happen. There's certainly plenty of ways prices can be systematically jacked up - planning laws, a screwed up mortgage market and the like.

The solution in my mind would be to find out what those reasons are, and try and remove them. I've never seen an example to date where that reason wasn't ultimately due to some government policy having an unforeseen effect.

Certainly in the UK the cost of living is high because of various government policies which serve to jack up prices. The ultra low interest rates is just the first and most obvious one.

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 Post subject: Re: Embrace Diversity!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:47 pm 
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EUBanana wrote:

Hmm. Well.

If the rents are so high then there must be some sort of reason why landlords aren't piling into the business, because thats the natural thing that would happen. There's certainly plenty of ways prices can be systematically jacked up - planning laws, a screwed up mortgage market and the like.

The solution in my mind would be to find out what those reasons are, and try and remove them. I've never seen an example to date where that reason wasn't ultimately due to some government policy having an unforeseen effect.

Certainly in the UK the cost of living is high because of various government policies which serve to jack up prices. The ultra low interest rates is just the first and most obvious one.

The prices of home are high, but people are forced to pay them, as having a home is a basic necessity. So why the private sector, before all interested by profit, would construct homes, which would result in the decrease of the prices, so of the profits? It is as simple as that. Why would a landlord make repair work in his dilapidated apartment if a family has no other mean than to pay the price that the landlord asks, because that family has no other solution?


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