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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:15 pm 
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Just out of interest EUB... where do you stand on libertarianism -v- neoliberalism?

I know it's a massive topic, just want to open it out a bit.

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“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”
Ben Stein, New York Times 26/11/06


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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:08 pm 
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Isn't neoliberalism a bit like fascism? A swear word used to describe people you don't like rather than a specific thing?

What do you define it as? Blairism? Thatcherism?

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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:32 pm 
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No, it's a real thing. Like fascism, or communism, or conservatism, or socialism, or other forms of political economy it evolves and manifests itself in different ways in adaptation to different historical conditions.

Short definition:

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/neoliberalism.asp

'What is 'Neoliberalism'

Neoliberalism is a policy model of social studies and economics that transfers control of economic factors to the private sector from the public sector. It takes from the basic principles of neoclassical economics, suggesting that governments must limit subsidies, make reforms to tax law in order to expand the tax base, reduce deficit spending, limit protectionism, and open markets up to trade. It also seeks to abolish fixed exchange rates, back deregulation, permit private property, and privatize businesses run by the state.

Liberalism, in economics, refers to a freeing of the economy by eliminating regulations and barriers that restrict what actors can do. Neoliberal policies aim for a laissez-faire approach to economic development.'

Neoliberalism could also be defined as a deliberate long term project conceived by Hayek and associated people in the 1950's, whose achievements include persuading entire countries to fund themselves by debt instead of by taxation, thus placing themselves in the hands of lenders; in creating, enhancing and protecting super-rich elites who have no stake in the societies they nominally stem from; in financialisation of entire economies; in rolling back labour rights; and in making democracy increasingly futile and irrelevant. So Thatcher, Blair, and probably now all of us, are manifestations of that project.

Reagan would be a major propellant of the movement. I hate to say it but Bill Clinton in his advocacy of NAFTA and Obama in his dismal support for TTIP, clearly buying into the same project from their own angles.

_________________
Guns don't kill people, healthcare kills people.

“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”
Ben Stein, New York Times 26/11/06


Last edited by normski- on Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:06 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:35 pm 
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So what I'm getting at, is the basic question I tried to ask mdiehl.

When you, as a tiny libertarian small fry, are screwed over by big libertarians of big financial capital, out for themselves and not for you, how do you conceptualise that experience?

_________________
Guns don't kill people, healthcare kills people.

“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”
Ben Stein, New York Times 26/11/06


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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:07 pm 
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Sorry I keep editing these posts.

However I've just noticed that the quote from Warren Buffet in my sig, is a neat encapsulation of the neoliberal project and what it aims to achieve:

“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”
Ben Stein, New York Times 26/11/06

It goes without saying, because it came without saying.

_________________
Guns don't kill people, healthcare kills people.

“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”
Ben Stein, New York Times 26/11/06


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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:03 pm 
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normski- wrote:
When you, as a tiny libertarian small fry, are screwed over by big libertarians of big financial capital, out for themselves and not for you, how do you conceptualise that experience?


I'm not aware of many libertarians in financial capital. Who are we talking about? Peter Schiff?



But if you wanna play that sort of game, why don't we turn it on its head? The government is taking approximately 50% of GDP, is absolutely omnipresent in our lives, it runs the economy, it bails out the banks, it picks winners and losers all the time. The poor are screwed, relentlessly, by the government. Not abstractly or indirectly, as a matter of class struggle or some rubbish like that, but directly, as in they are not allowed to shelter themselves, the government gets a big slice of their income, etcetera, and if they don't go along with it they go to jail. They are prodded, regulated, their pasttimes criticised, their thinking policed, their life choices disapproved of and nudged in other directions.

Consider something specific and libertarian, I dunno, the sugar tax. Do you consider the poor to be bovine cattle too thick to be allowed freedom of choice? Is it for their own good, and you're like a sort of prison warden, but a nice one? Or is that they are a sort of an abstract mass on a production line, like the state is a great machine and they are the fuel, and its purely a matter of weighing up the economics of it all, NHS vs irresponsibility? How do you conceptualise that experience?

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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:09 pm 
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normski- wrote:
Neoliberalism could also be defined as a deliberate long term project conceived by Hayek and associated people in the 1950's, whose achievements include persuading entire countries to fund themselves by debt instead of by taxation, thus placing themselves in the hands of lenders; in creating, enhancing and protecting super-rich elites who have no stake in the societies they nominally stem from; in financialisation of entire economies; in rolling back labour rights; and in making democracy increasingly futile and irrelevant. So Thatcher, Blair, and probably now all of us, are manifestations of that project.

Reagan would be a major propellant of the movement. I hate to say it but Bill Clinton in his advocacy of NAFTA and Obama in his dismal support for TTIP, clearly buying into the same project from their own angles.


I guess this is your definition as it aint in the link, so yeah, I guess it basically means 'evil' in your universe right? Kinda like I said. A word that sits next to 'fascism' in the intellectual toolbox.

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“The gap in EU finances arising from the United Kingdom’s withdrawal and from the financing needs of new priorities need to be clearly acknowledged.” - Mario Monti


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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:00 pm 
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The libertarian position on a tax on sugary drinks is that people have the right to make their own decisions as long as they don't harm others. That would be true of all "sin" taxes.

I'm not exactly sure how "libertarianism" and "neoliberalism" differ. It's only recently that I have heard the latter and it almost always seems to spoken with venom (not in your case).

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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:33 am 
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@EUB

'I guess this is your definition as it aint in the link '

Not my definition, there are other definitions than the one in Investopedia.

'I guess it basically means 'evil' in your universe right?'

That's a shallow observation. It's an outline of the world we live in. I'm surprised that you yourself have not recognised this already.

'Kinda like I said. A word that sits next to 'fascism' in the intellectual toolbox.'

Not really. We can all sling labels around but the issue is whether these are accurate and describe something in the real world, or whether they are being used deliberately inaccurately for comic effect. I'm making an effort here to draw threads together and you can't be bothered engaging with all of them, yet.

@jtr

'I'm not exactly sure how "libertarianism" and "neoliberalism" differ. It's only recently that I have heard the latter and it almost always seems to spoken with venom (not in your case).'

Where's the venom? There's lament but nothing poisonous. Indeed little in the way of my personal opinion and more in the way of factual observation.

Hayek was a consequential libertarian, whatever that is, and at the same time a neoliberal.

A further set of observations about neoliberalism come from Wacquant who posits a 'centaur state', that is a class based state which is liberal at the top and punitive at the bottom.

That is, at the top there are unaccountable elites who pay no taxes and whose misdemeanours and breaches of law are treated with leniency. At the bottom is an underclass who are heavily penalised for being poor, and controlled by rigid policing along with a privatised apparatus of workfare, and prisons run for private profit. In the middle is a debtor class.

You have billionaire business people who pay less tax than their secretaries. You have multinational companies like Amazon and Starbucks that move their profits to tax havens so they pay less tax than local businesses. You have freedom of capital so that things don't need to be built in your country, they can be outsourced. You have deregulation so finance can be moved offshore. You have assaults on every kind of welfare except for those at the top. You have freedom of movement to provide cheap labour where labour protections have been eroded.

EUB flippantly suggests these phenomena are 'evil' in my parlance. I didn't use that kind of language. I'm saying the phenomena are observable in the real world and are linked by a common project into which most democratic politicians buy, each to greater or lesser degrees.

_________________
Guns don't kill people, healthcare kills people.

“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”
Ben Stein, New York Times 26/11/06


Last edited by normski- on Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:13 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:46 am 
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jack t ripper wrote:
The libertarian position on a tax on sugary drinks is that people have the right to make their own decisions as long as they don't harm others. That would be true of all "sin" taxes.

I'm not exactly sure how "libertarianism" and "neoliberalism" differ. It's only recently that I have heard the latter and it almost always seems to spoken with venom (not in your case).

What is the libertarian position on subsidies on unhealthy food and drinks? :roll:

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