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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:38 pm 
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nero wrote:
Mac wrote:
...
Even his own party are saying he is clueless and irrelevant. Why do you think?

Well, what about he is saying. Is that irrelevant? :roll:

Obviously since both sides are saying he should just STFU. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:59 pm 
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Mac wrote:
...
Obviously since both sides are saying he should just STFU. :roll:

The problem with ordinary people is that they can not think about abstract things, and can not make difference between ideas and who present them.

So it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:45 pm 
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EUBanana wrote:
'Reformed EU'. They keep talking about that as if there is such a thing, or maybe that such a thing is within Tony Blair's godlike powers to have.

It isn't. It's a lie. Remember Cameron's 'renegotiation'? That was about reforming the EU. He was told to take a hike.

It's a mirage, it's not happening. The EU is unreformable, unless you mean ever closer union.

Yes, that's exaclty how here the Socialist party tried to sell us Europe: if you elect us, we will reform it. We elected them, and they did nothing. That was one of the reasons why I voted Hollande in 2012. I understood after that he was a traitor. Blair is certainly the same thing, and a liar. Don't trust a social democrat.


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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:07 pm 
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LaPalice wrote:
EUBanana wrote:
'Reformed EU'. They keep talking about that as if there is such a thing, or maybe that such a thing is within Tony Blair's godlike powers to have.

It isn't. It's a lie. Remember Cameron's 'renegotiation'? That was about reforming the EU. He was told to take a hike.

It's a mirage, it's not happening. The EU is unreformable, unless you mean ever closer union.

Yes, that's exaclty how here the Socialist party tried to sell us Europe: if you elect us, we will reform it. We elected them, and they did nothing. That was one of the reasons why I voted Hollande in 2012. I understood after that he was a traitor. Blair is certainly the same thing, and a liar. Don't trust a social democrat.

I would't not call Holland a traitor. The word impotent comes first in my mind. And the same with Cameron.

The problem with Social Democrats, at least in Finland, is that they have achieved everything they proposed in Forssa 1903. But the world is changing, so must policies.

The only solid thing in the world is the US Constitution, directly form the 18th century.

Europe does not have such values, only revolutions, reforms and what not, like nationalism. :lol:

OP, not to mention nazism and fascism. :twisted:

So it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:49 pm 
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nero wrote:
I would't not call Holland a traitor. The word impotent comes first in my mind. And the same with Cameron.

Hollande made many promises during his campaign, he respected almost none of them. After his election he organized a commission which said that the country should be reformed with austerity, so Hollande said that he was not able to follow his program and instead of that that he was forced to reform France. So he made a conservative policy. Of course he was ready to do that even before his election, and used the commission as a good excuse. That's why, among other things, that he is a treator. He killed his party, there is a justice.


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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:01 pm 
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LaPalice wrote:
nero wrote:
I would't not call Holland a traitor. The word impotent comes first in my mind. And the same with Cameron.

Hollande made many promises during his campaign, he respected almost none of them. After his election he organized a commission which said that the country should be reformed with austerity, so Hollande said that he was not able to follow his program and instead of that that he was forced to reform France. So he made a conservative policy. Of course he was ready to do that even before his election, and used the commission as a good excuse. That's why, among other things, that he is a treator. He killed his party, there is a justice.

So adapting to austerity made Holland a traitor. I accept that; austerity is just self-destructing, suicidal economic policy. That just shrinks to economy.

There are more challenges to com, machine learning and such. Automation is old to mention. Macron has a lot of things to solve. Or Rather EU has a lot of things to solve.

I wish good luck to Emmanuel and Angela.

But I really hope that they know what they are doing.



:roll:

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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:56 pm 
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LaPalice wrote:
EUBanana wrote:
'Reformed EU'. They keep talking about that as if there is such a thing, or maybe that such a thing is within Tony Blair's godlike powers to have.

It isn't. It's a lie. Remember Cameron's 'renegotiation'? That was about reforming the EU. He was told to take a hike.

It's a mirage, it's not happening. The EU is unreformable, unless you mean ever closer union.

Yes, that's exaclty how here the Socialist party tried to sell us Europe: if you elect us, we will reform it. We elected them, and they did nothing. That was one of the reasons why I voted Hollande in 2012. I understood after that he was a traitor. Blair is certainly the same thing, and a liar. Don't trust a social democrat.


I think governments have a hard time recognising that the EU is apart from them. I think sometimes they believe their own hype. I think Cameron was quite honest in his negotiation attempts, at least in his desire to secure some sort of deal. He seemed quite surprised that the EU told him to bog off.

The current debate in the UK, about parliament getting input on the final deal - the problem with that is, takes two to tango. The only deal possible is the one the EU is willing to make. This is why in general legislatures ratify treaties but they don't help draft them, because it's simply not possible, there are 2 parties here. Parliamentary supremacy ends at the border.

You can't reform something that doesn't want to be reformed, and you can't cut a half and half deal with something that refuses to countenance some sort of associate membership.

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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:27 pm 
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It's true. If the UK were to crawl back on their knees begging for a reformed EU in exchange for continued membership it would just embolden them.

It's giving Hitler the Sudetenland. The guy is not going away. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:40 pm 
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jack t ripper wrote:
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It's giving Hitler the Sudetenland. The guy is not going away. ;)

It's more like giving Crimea to Russia. ;)

How much Chamberlainian can Trump be. Oh wait, he will get his orders from Kremlin.

So it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:27 pm 
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nero wrote:
jack t ripper wrote:
...
It's giving Hitler the Sudetenland. The guy is not going away. ;)

It's more like giving Crimea to Russia. ;)

How much Chamberlainian can Trump be. Oh wait, he will get his orders from Kremlin.

So it goes.


Nero, in case your memory is foggy in your old age, Trump was not president when Russia took the Crimea.

What exactly is it that Trump has given Russia?

Did the Kremlin order Trump to do this?:

Trump Imposes New Sanctions on Russia Over Ukraine Incursion

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