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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:10 am 
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EUBanana wrote:
nero wrote:
...
What question I was dodging? :roll:


That the government should be broadly reflective of the views of the plebs.

Demos = people, Kratos = rule

I know that you support direct, referendum democracy instead of the representative, parliamentary democracy. But even Switzerland has Bundesversammlung to make laws; hoi polloi can vote for simple yes/no question like are minarets allowed or can women vote. Though the turnout in the Swiss referendums tend to quite low ~25%.

I think that having a majority government should do the thing you ask. Of course in UK it is difficult see, when apparently nobody can support the government policies. :(

I don't see how direct democracy of ancient Athens could be applied in current world. Perhaps to radically reduce the number of people who can vote would help. :roll:

Perhaps you have better solutions? ;)

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Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:38 am 
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chijohnaok wrote:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/we-will-use-sanctions-to-punish-you-during-brexit-transition-says-brussels-vfwcfswdc

Quote:
We will use sanctions to punish you, says Brussels

EU demands unilateral powers during transition


Bruno Waterfield, Brussels | Oliver Wright | John Walsh
February 7 2018, 12:00pm,
The Times

.../...


Again, the EU shows its true face: an authoritarian organisation, not a democratic one. Its only goal is to punish those who differ with it. We saw that with Greece. In its mind, if the British people decided to leave, it is not because the EU is wrong, but because the British are wrong, and must pay for that. So we must not wait that the EU recognizes its error, and those who think that it can be reformed, the social-democrats mainly, are wrong, and are dangerous naive people.


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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:37 pm 
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nero wrote:
I know that you support direct, referendum democracy instead of the representative, parliamentary democracy. But even Switzerland has Bundesversammlung to make laws; hoi polloi can vote for simple yes/no question like are minarets allowed or can women vote. Though the turnout in the Swiss referendums tend to quite low ~25%.

I think that having a majority government should do the thing you ask. Of course in UK it is difficult see, when apparently nobody can support the government policies. :(

I don't see how direct democracy of ancient Athens could be applied in current world. Perhaps to radically reduce the number of people who can vote would help. :roll:

Perhaps you have better solutions? ;)


I think what we have now is pretty good - assuming it actually delivers and is not overridden by the oligarchy. Parliament has most of the decision making, members of the public can make their dissent known through various means. UKIP getting 15% of the vote and scaring the Tories into agreeing to one is one of those means. And on occasion, for major issues of constitutional significance, Parliament arranges a referendum.

Of course, that implies Parliament actually does what the plebs advise: constitutionally, Parliament remains supreme. I think they are pretty much bound to do so at this point, and would take them overruling us very dimly indeed. It does appear that in general, Parliament is wise enough as a collective body to realise this.

... In general.

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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:38 pm 
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LaPalice wrote:
Again, the EU shows its true face: an authoritarian organisation, not a democratic one. Its only goal is to punish those who differ with it. We saw that with Greece. In its mind, if the British people decided to leave, it is not because the EU is wrong, but because the British are wrong, and must pay for that. So we must not wait that the EU recognizes its error, and those who think that it can be reformed, the social-democrats mainly, are wrong, and are dangerous naive people.


As is so normal lately I can't disagree with anything LaPalice writes.

Maybe its all a dastardly plan to bring about European unity by presenting us all with a common European enemy to fight. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:02 pm 
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EUBanana wrote:
LaPalice wrote:
Again, the EU shows its true face: an authoritarian organisation, not a democratic one. Its only goal is to punish those who differ with it. We saw that with Greece. In its mind, if the British people decided to leave, it is not because the EU is wrong, but because the British are wrong, and must pay for that. So we must not wait that the EU recognizes its error, and those who think that it can be reformed, the social-democrats mainly, are wrong, and are dangerous naive people.


As is so normal lately I can't disagree with anything LaPalice writes.

Maybe its all a dastardly plan to bring about European unity by presenting us all with a common European enemy to fight. :lol:

If there were a European referendum about EU, whatever the question, the anti-EU motion would win, that's sure. It seems that the eurocrats have the feeling to exist only if they act against the interests of the Europeans. I am sure that it is an enjoyment for them ;)


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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:27 pm 
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LaPalice wrote:
If there were a European referendum about EU, whatever the question, the anti-EU motion would win, that's sure. It seems that the eurocrats have the feeling to exist only if they act against the interests of the Europeans. I am sure that it is an enjoyment for them ;)


All this crap about 'populism' lately does seem to be turning into 'we must do the exact opposite of what the people actually want because that makes us great statesmen'.

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 Post subject: Re: EU and Brexit
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:48 pm 
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EUBanana wrote:
LaPalice wrote:
If there were a European referendum about EU, whatever the question, the anti-EU motion would win, that's sure. It seems that the eurocrats have the feeling to exist only if they act against the interests of the Europeans. I am sure that it is an enjoyment for them ;)


All this crap about 'populism' lately does seem to be turning into 'we must do the exact opposite of what the people actually want because that makes us great statesmen'.

Yes, the decibel-democracy rulez; empty barrels make the most noise. :(

Image

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Mit der Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens.


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